The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar.

Fracture Liaison Services

Natasha Asghar AS: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the provision of fracture liaison services across health boards in Wales? OQ60990

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. Good progress is being made on our commitment to achieve 100 per cent fracture liaison service coverage across Wales by September 2024.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much, First Minsiter. Just last week, your Government's Cabinet Secretary for health openly admitted that the NHS in Wales isn't performing well enough, as yet another record was reached on waiting times. According to your recent comments, these waiting times are your top priority, but there are other commitments you'll need to consider in tandem if you're to avoid breaking your promises. In September 2023, the health Secretary issued a statement committing to achieve, as you mentioned, 100 per cent coverage for all health boards by fracture liaison services by 2024. But, unfortunately, First Minister, we're now two thirds of the way through the 18-month timeline set out by the Cabinet Secretary, and only four out of the seven health boards even have these services. Sadly, this is just the tip of the iceberg, as only 21 per cent of fracture patients nationally are being identified in our Welsh NHS, due to underperformance in these services, even where they are now currently in place.As it now looks increasingly unlikely that this target set in February 2023 will be met, can you confirm today whether your Government is still committed to the 100 per cent figure, and, if so, that this will include access for everyone over 50 in Wales to a quality fracture liaison service that meets national clinical standard key performance indicators? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: We are on track to deliver the commitment made by the Cabinet Secretary for health. I look forward to the new services starting in September to deliver against that commitment. We recognise that fragility fractures can be painful and potentially debilitating. That's why we've recognised the role of fracture liaison services, which provide early intervention and easy access to osteoporosis care to reduce the risk of such fractures. And much progress has been made since Dr InderSingh was appointed as the national clinical lead for falls and fragility in 2022. We've come a long way. There's more to go, but we remain on track to meet the commitment given by the Cabinet Secretary for health.

Buffy Williams AS: First Minister, on average, women lose up to 10 per cent of their bone mass in the first five years after menopause. Having lower levels of oestrogen increases the risk of developing osteoporosis, so women experiencing the menopause are at an increased risk of broken bones or fractures. The First Minister will be aware that one in two women over 50 will experience a broken bone in their lifetime. Fracture liaison services in all health board areas is a very welcome step forward, but what else is being done to improve bone health and NHS services in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. It's an important point to make that we expect that one in two women over the age of 50 will experience a broken bone within that stage of their lifetime. Now, for us, that's both about the two points you make—about bone health and what we look to do to try to make sure that people can make their own choices about how to live well and improve their own bone health, as well as what the NHS does. That's the service model that fracture liaison services represent. It's also, though, about having access to the most up-to-date evidence and treatment support as well. That's why the Royal Osteoporosis Society recognised the decision by NICE—the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence—to make the first new osteoporosis drug treatment available in a decade. That new drug—I'm not going to pronounce the technical name as it's a bit of tongue-twister, with lots of z's in it—has been available in Wales since 2022. It's another example of where new medications are made available, recommended by NICE, in Wales, because of the way that we support that process and, indeed, the way we use our funding. That early access to evidence-based treatment is available all across Wales now. There will, of course, be more that we can do. As we roll out the fracture liaison service, we will learn lessons from its implementation, and I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary for health continuing to update people, in addition to the money that she has found to invest in the service.

Joyce Watson AC: Of course, I welcome the creation of the fracture liaison services across Wales, but could you, First Minister, provide an update on the provision in Powys, where there are no district general hospitals, and how that service will be delivered?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's a fair point, of course, because we expect all six health boards with secondary care hospitals to be on track to deliver the service by the end of September. Four already have that service. The other two we expect to be on track to deliver in September, meeting the commitment made by the Cabinet Secretary for health. There is a different model being developed in Powys because it doesn't have secondary care hospitals. So, in that unique position, Powys are working with neighbouring health boards to make sure that the population of Powys have access to that service. So, the model needs to deliver not just in the six health boards that have the hospital provision, but equitable care and access to it for residents in Powys, and we're on track to do so. Powys, of course, is used to having to provide these services in a different way—to commission and organise services within Wales and, indeed, sometimes across the border. So, we're clear that the pathway should be in place for people living in Powys to have the same equitable access to the same quality of care and the improvement that this service represents.

The Situation in Gaza

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. What is the Government doing to support Welsh families affected by the situation in Gaza? OQ60991

Vaughan Gething AC: Ministers and Cabinet colleagues have met with both Jewish and Muslim leaders and community members since the start of the Israel-Gaza war. We continue to offer our condolences to all those people affected by the current crisis. A number of families and community groups are directly affected in communities across Wales. And we will continue to support any hate crime victims through our Wales Hate Support Centre.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Last week at a Senedd event, we heard from Mr and Mrs Brisley from Bridgend, whose daughter and granddaughters were killed by Hamas on 7 October. They said that they hadn't heard from anyone from the Welsh Government since the loss of their loved ones. I'd like to know if the same is true for all Welsh citizens who have lost relatives in the region during the last six and a half months of bloody conflict. I'd also like to know if any support has been given to Welsh citizens who have done everything they could, financially and emotionally, to get their relatives out of the danger zone in Gaza. Some of our residents with links to Palestine have gone into eye-watering debt to safeguard their loved ones. We really need safe passages set up to avert the escalating humanitarian disaster in Gaza, and I'd like to know what the Government can do about that. And finally, given the events since 7 October, with more than 30,000 people dead, and hostages still being held, does he now agree with Members on the Plaid Cymru benches that an immediate ceasefire is the only way to guarantee the end of the bloodshed, for the return of the hostages, and an end to the famine we are seeing in Gaza?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's been the position of the Welsh Government for some time that there should be an immediate ceasefire. There needs to be a significant increase in routes for aid, as well as the amount of aid provided, because there is a very real humanitarian crisis taking place before us, in addition to resolving the issues around the atrocities that did take place on 7 October, which includes the release of all the hostages. Now, I don't think that, across this Chamber, people will disagree with that position. Our challenge is the level of influence we have on decision makers within the region, the talks that are taking place between different actors to try to generate a ceasefire, and the ability to stop the killing.
Now, when that comes to what we can do practically in Wales—you mentioned the family of Lianne Sharabi—we continue to provide practical support, in terms of the emotional well-being of people who live in Wales. I recognise that there are people on all sides of this conflict who are directly affected in constituencies and regions here in Wales. If the Member is able to provide me with more direct contact details for where the family are at present, and how they have or haven't accessed services, I'll happily make sure that the support that is available is provided to them. But we're really talking about practical and emotional support for families. This is an area where we don't have responsibility for dealing with both refugee and returns policies and family reunion. The Welsh Government has been clear, though, that we want a more generous approach to people seeking asylum, people fleeing war zones, and for a proper family reunion service. We actually provided funding towards the service provided by the Red Cross. As I say, I recognise that there's concern on all sides of this Chamber. We'll continue to play as constructive a role as we can do here in the Welsh Government, and with, as I say, the clarity in our call for a ceasefire, for an increase in aid and for the hostages to be released.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, First Minister, for that response. Like others in this Chamber, I have been very concerned about the increase in antisemitism, and, indeed, in anti-Muslim hatred, since 7 October, even on our streets here in Wales. Now, one of the things that the Welsh Government could do to try to address antisemitism, particularly on our university campuses, is to require, as a condition of funding for our universities, higher education institutions to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism. Is that something that your Government will require them to do?

Vaughan Gething AC: The Government, of course—this Welsh Government—has recognised the IHRA definition of antisemitism. So, it goes into the work that we do. It is part of how we see our delivery of a genuinely anti-racist Wales. I am pleased that the Member recognises that there has been both a rise in antisemitism on the streets in communities that we represent and, indeed, a rise in Islamaphobia. I have seen that in my own constituency, sadly. I'm not sure that the proposal he makes on requiring the recognition of the IHRA as a funding condition for universities will actually help to deliver the practical measures that we need to see a reduction in antisemitism and Islamaphobia on university campuses. I think it is part of a whole society challenge and effort, where you want people to be able to discuss topics in a way that is safe and does not increase the hate and the division that already exists. That will continue to guide the approach that this Government takes in our engagement with families, communities and wider stakeholders in Wales.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, many families in Newport East have been and are affected by the events in Israel and Gaza, and what they want, as we've already touched upon, is an immediate and permanent ceasefire, the release of hostages, sufficient humanitarian aid finding its way into Gaza and, indeed, the beginnings of a political process that will bring a lasting peaceful solution. António Guterres, the Secretary General of the United Nations, I believe has spoken very powerfully about these important moments in history and the need not to be a bystander. So, I would just say, First Minister, that we have different levels of responsibility, obviously, as you've touched upon, at different levels of Government, but it is really important for political leaders and politicians—all of us—at all levels not to be bystanders and to call for humanity to prevail.

Vaughan Gething AC: Again, I don't think there is a single Member across this Chamber that would disagree with the sentiment and the statement made by John Griffiths. I'm interested in how innocent civilians, whether they be Israeli or Palestinan, can actually plan a future with the peace and security that we take for granted in this country. As I said, the Welsh Government is clear: we want to see an immediate end to the killing, a ceasefire; we want to see an immediate significant increase in the aid that can be provided; we want to see hostages returned. It remains my view that the long-term way to guarantee the stability and peaceful security that citizens should expect is for there to be a viable, secure Israel, as a neighbour to a viable and secure Palestinian state. We are a long way off from that being delivered in reality.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, why is the economy Minister's judgment on accepting political donations more principled than yours?

Vaughan Gething AC: I don't think there's a difference in principle at all. I have been clear, as, indeed, have both of the leadership campaigns from the recent past, that all donations will be declared in accordance with all of the requirements. They've been registered and recorded, they're available, and we will deal with not just the rules for the contest, the legal requirements, but we'll carry on being open about what has happened and the future. My own party is undertaking a review following our recent leadership contest. It was a very harmonious and positive meeting of the Welsh executive of Welsh Labour, the Member will be delighted to know, and we have agreement on a way forward to look at both communications with members, campaign finance, nominations and, indeed, the length of the contest. And I look forward to that objective group of people coming back with their report.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Obviously, that's an internal investigation, First Minister. I think most people objectively looking at this would agree with the economy Minister's assertion on The Politics Show that he wouldn't have taken a donation from a company that has numerous criminal convictions against it for environmental infringements. The news came out over the weekend of a company that is in receipt of a £400,000 loan from an organisation at arm's length from the Welsh Government that you were the Minister responsible for, and has numerous planning applications, in particular a solar park, before the Welsh Government's Planning Inspectorate at the moment. I think a reasonable person, which is what the ministerial code talks of, would say that there is a potential conflict of interest there in your good self and the person who made this donation. Would you agree with me that a reasonable person would draw the same conclusions as the economy Minister? If he was offered that donation, he would have turned it down.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think a reasonable person would be interested in the facts. Let me run through the facts about the issue that you've raised about DBW's support. The development bank has given the following factual statement: in 2023 it agreed a loan to Neal Soil Suppliers for £400,000 that funded the purchase of a solar park within the Vale of Glamorgan constituency; that purchase has gone ahead and they are on track to repay that loan with interest in the five-year term agreed.
The development bank makes commercial loans and equity investments in small and medium businesses in Wales. Those lending and investment decisions are taken by the development bank, and they're wholly independent of Welsh Government Ministers. A reasonable person understanding the facts of the matter I don't think would then conclude that there is a conflict that exists.
Indeed, of course, within the ministerial code, there is the requirement to separate ministerial and constituency interests. The Member made reference to an application that may come before Welsh Ministers. As it's in my constituency, I cannot and will not have any part to play in that decision, a point that has been made very clearly by the housing, local government and planning Cabinet Secretary. I think a reasonable person would be interested in the facts.
I should also make clear that I believe that DBW is a Welsh success story. It has 11 active funds for business worth £1.2 billion,supporting more that 2,700 businesses across the country. When it comes to its commercial loan and equity investments, Ministers have not made a decision in any of those more than 2,700 investment choices.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: This is having a real corrosive effect on the Government, as the silence of your own benches is showing here before everyone today. There cannot be any question that that reasonable person that you and I are referring to would draw the conclusion that the economy Secretary drew, that this donation should not have been accepted.
I said to you, First Minister, in a letter that the way to address this would be in the way that your predecessor did in 2017 when there were issues that were deflecting from the important work of Government—to appoint an independent adviser on the ministerial code to look at this and actually address these concerns that people have. Regrettably, this morning, you have sent me a letter saying you will not undertake that perfectly reasonable proposition of having an independent adviser to look into the suggestions that have been put around this donation.
I would prefer to be here questioning you today about the crisis in the cancer services across Wales that the director of Macmillan Wales highlighted in his comments on the weekend. I would urge you again, First Minister, given the severity of some of the assertions that have been made, and in particular the corrosive nature of those assertions, to look at the appointment of an independent adviser to address these concerns and provide you with what I hope is a clean bill of health—I genuinely hope that—so that you as First Minister, along with the rest of the Government, can get on with that important work of delivering on reducing the health waiting times, getting our economy moving and improving educational attainment across Wales. That is the agenda that the Government should be addressing, not week after week seeing these various bits of information appearing around the donations that were made to your leadership campaign, which the economy Secretary said he wouldn't have accepted.

Vaughan Gething AC: Let's go back again to the facts. The donations have been declared for both leadership campaigns. When it comes to support provided by the Development Bank of Wales, it made an investment choice with a commercial loan more than a year ago, and that has gone into the purchase of an individual asset, and repayments are being made in line with the terms of that loan. All of those loan and equity investments to businesses in Wales are made independent of the Welsh Government by the Development Bank of Wales. Those are the facts. There is no reason to undertake an investigation when the facts are so clear and unambiguous. And I say again, the Development Bank of Wales is a Welsh success story. More than 2,700 businesses are supported by its activity. It makes those choices independently of the Welsh Government. And all of those issues will affect constituencies and regions across Wales represented by different Members in this Chamber. I'm very clear about the fact that those are the facts.
There is no reason to undertake an individual independent investigation simply on the basis of an opposition press release. I agree with the leader of the opposition, though, that the really important business for the future of our country goes back to the priorities that I set out last week—the priorities facing families in every constituency, people who are worried about whether they're going to be able to pay their bills at the end of the month, people who have permanently seen a rise in their mortgage payments, thanks, of course, to what's happened over the last few years. This Government is focused on the reality of the cost-of-living crisis, the increased tax burden for working people, the reality that we do have more to do on a range of issues. That's why I'm so delighted that the talks started yesterday with the British Medical Association to help resolve industrial action. Wewill remain focused on the challenges that face Wales. That is the view of all Ministers in this Government. That is what Welsh Labour will be taking forward in our purpose—delivering for Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. It's over a month now since the First Minister took office. This is his second scrutiny session. These questions just aren't going away, are they? We've had the sheer scale of the payments to his leadership campaign—£200,000. We've had the source of that money—a convicted polluter. Then we know that that company was in debt to the First Minister's own Government. Everybody in this Chamber should want to defend Welsh democracy from the harm those kinds of actions can cause. Now, with even Labour MSs speaking out, and a member of his own Government, his rival in the leadership contest, we know that most Senedd Members here believe he's shown poor judgment.
But so that we can understand, when the money was offered, did the First Minister ask who it was from, was told about the donor's criminal past and said, 'Ah, it doesn't matter, I'll take the money anyway', in which case, that raises fundamental questions of judgment, or was it that despite the scale of this donation, he didn't think to ask for proper due diligence? That would, again, be very poor judgment. Which was it?

Vaughan Gething AC: All of the due diligence was undertaken about whether this was a permissible donor that money could be accepted from, and it was declared properly and it's on the record now. It's worth pointing out, actually, that for any of the donors to either of the leadership campaigns, there will be processes in place to make sure that those individuals cannot make choices about those businesses that have donated, and that's to make sure that the ministerial code is properly adhered to and that we don't have conflicts of interest.
I'm very clear—and the Member made the point, again, made by the leader of the Conservatives—about the reality that the Development Bank of Wales had provided loan support, loan support provided without any reference to Welsh Government Ministers, no involvement in the process, with their own individual assessment of whether that loan should be provided, and it was used for the purpose that it was given—the purchase of a solar farm—and it's on track to be repaid within the term. I'm very comfortable that the Development Bank of Wales could and should run its own business without ministerial interference in individual loan and investment choices. That in itself would be a real problem, and one that I will not undertake.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The fact that you registered a donation from a convicted polluter doesn't make it good judgment to have accepted that donation. We've long associated Westminster with sleaze; that is not what we want here in Wales. In his acceptance speech, the new First Minister said he wanted to lead a country full of hope, ambition and unity. He can't even unite his own party on whether he was right or not, and I'm not surprised there's obvious unease on his own benches, front and back.
Now, the revelation that Dauson is in debt to the Development Bank of Wales has raised concerns even more because it goes to the heart of Government operations, and the First Minister shouldn't here be deflecting this on to the Development Bank of Wales. We're not questioning the integrity of the Development Bank of Wales, we're questioning his integrity. The ministerial code is clear:
'Ministers must ensure that no conflict arises, or appears to arise, between their public duties and their private interests'.
Private interest, in this case, would be a leadership contest for the Labour Party.
'Ministers should not accept any gift or hospitality which might, or might reasonably appear to, compromise their judgement'.
Now, I believe that that threshold has been reached, and it's why I wrote to the Permanent Secretary, asking for a full independent inquiry and for the findings to be made public. Now, given the public, I think, would have little confidence in the First Minister himself acting as judge and jury in his own case, would he agree on the need for an inquiry to be independent?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, let's go back to the facts: when it comes to the choice made by DBW—and you are questioning the choice—the choice is made independently by the—[Interruption.] The choice is made independently by the development bank. It independently decides whether to invest or not, and that is entirely separate from any choice made by a Welsh Government Minister. If a Welsh Government Minister doesn't have any engagement or involvement in the choice, it's hard to see how there is a conflict. And more than that, of course, this is a business within my constituency, and the ministerial code is crystal clear that I cannot make choices about businesses within my constituency. It's therefore difficult to see where there is a reason or evidence to support an independent investigation. And, in fact, as we've been through last week, it's a regular feature that Ministers have to separate out their own constituency interests. It happens, for example, when submissions are made around Celsa Steel UK, based in my constituency—I cannot and do not make choices around them. It's exactly the same for other businesses if there is an issue where a Welsh Minister needs to make a choice.
And when it comes to the future, I've been crystal clear about the support for a new environmental governance regime, increasing standards for what we expect of businesses and their environmental footprint. That remains a commitment of this Government; I look forward to that coming into legislation during this term.
And when it comes to unity, the Welsh executive committee of Welsh Labour has been very united—a very positive meeting took place on Saturday. There's unity about the process we're undertaking, moving forward, and, indeed, the focus on the priorities I set out last week: the families who are interested in whether they can pay their bills at the end of the month, and the businesses that are worried about whether they're going to have the sort of future and stability in the Government they want to see at a Welsh and a UK level. The challenge is over a different frame of investment in our public services and support for the economy. Those are the priorities that this Government will continue to focus on, and all Members of our Government will continue to do so.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Perhaps it's because people are struggling financially that they can't understand why this First Minister is so flippant about a gift of £200,000. And for the record, I'm not questioning a decision made by the Development Bank of Wales; the choice that we're talking about here was the choice of the First Minister to accept or not accept that money.
Now, the First Minister has now commissioned one of his predecessors, Carwyn Jones, to undertake a review of the rules surrounding donations in its leadership contests. In the interests of transparency, it's regrettable that the First Minister chose a party insider rather than somebody unaffiliated to Labour to do that review, but at least there is hope that Carwyn Jones won't pull his punches, having previously called the donations 'unfortunate' and claiming that the First Minister has lessons to learn.
Now, the last First Minister told me in this Chamber that the Labour leadership contest was none of my business. I think all of this shows it is all of our business. It's ultimately the Labour Party that chose this First Minister, so in that context, will he commit to making the findings of that review public?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two things. The first is I'm glad the Member has made clear now that he does not challenge the DBW decision. That accepts the objectivity of that decision and the lack of any kind of influence of Welsh Ministers. If you don't accept that, you can't say you're not challenging the decision and the facts about how it independently comes to investment choices. And if, actually, you recognised there is no challenge around its choice, it's hard to see how there is a reason to investigate that. What is there to be investigated if you accept there is no challenge to the decision? If you don't like the way that donations are provided within the contest, well that's a different issue, and that's nothing to do with DBW's choice.
When you look at what we are able to do, I think it is important that my party undertakes a process after the leadership contest, to learn lessons and to move forward. It'll be a decision for the Welsh executive committee, when it receives the report, about what it publishes. I have no doubt at all that it will be in the public domain. In the meantime, and even after that, I look forward to the challenges and the opportunities that this year presents: the challenges that we face with a current UK Government that is not a friend of Wales; the opportunity to argue for an entirely different future, opportunities that you will hear set out again today—last week by Huw Irranca-Davies in his new brief; today, you'll hear from the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, and indeed the economy and energy Secretary, setting out what we are looking to do within the rest of this year, and the opportunities for the future to create the better Wales that this Government is committed to delivering.

Health Policy within the Fire and Rescue Services

Luke Fletcher AS: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's progress in relation to health policy within the fire and rescue services? OQ60950

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Workplace health and safety is a matter for employers. However, we have reached an agreement with fire and rescue authorities and unions on reducing the risks of cancer that firefighters may face in their work.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: The University of Central Lancashire was commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union to conduct the UK firefighter contamination survey in order to provide an evidence base for understanding the risks and common sources of contaminant exposure to firefighters, and the findings were stark. Instances of cancer among firefighters aged 35 to 39 are up to 323 per cent higher than in the general population in the same age category. That's 323 per cent higher.
Now, work, of course, is under way to better protect firefighters from exposure, as we see through the DECON campaign, but there is currently no form of preventative cancer or other disease monitoring programme in place for UK firefighters. Now, a study of occupational disease mortality rates of Scottish firefighters concludes that preventative health monitoring is urgently required to protect UK firefighters' health. Does the First Minister agree, and will he commit now to bringing in specific health monitoring for Welsh firefighters?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two things. The first is I understand the occupational risks for a range of different workers, including firefighters. In fact, during my career as a trade union solicitor before coming to this place, I worked on cases, and personal injury cases as well as, indeed, employment cases, that looked directly at consequences for firefighters when they've attended incidents to protect the public. So, I recognise this is a very real issue for this group of workers and, potentially, for others.
I'm pleased he's mentioned the research that the FBU commissioned from the University of Central Lancashire. Actually, we've taken that through our social partnership forum and we haven't just considered their recommendations, but we're looking for work that can be done to understand what we can do to improve the occupational health and safety position for firefighters.
When it comes to his specific request around cancer screening for firefighters as an occupational group, we'd need to see an evidence base that comes through the advice that we get as a Government and for our service through the UK National Screening Committee. We'll continue to monitor not just the evidence base, but recommendations from that key committee about how we make best use of our resources. If we deploy them into a particular area, then there may be a challenge about whether those screening resources could be used to greater effect in different areas of the population. So, that evidence will guide us about the best use of resources to deliver the best return, but, whether firefighters or otherwise, there is clear guidance available, if people are concerned about symptoms or occupational exposure, about where they can go for both support and advice in the world of work and outside it.

Joel James AS: First Minister, recent research has shown that there's a direct correlation between exposure of firefighters to fire effluents and poor mental health. In particular, it's been shown that endocrine disrupters, such as polychlorinated biphenyls, which are gas-phase flame retardants used in furniture and carpet padding and in hard plastic casings, not only lead to hormone imbalances and neuroendocrine dysfunction, but can also lead to conditions such as depression and anxiety. Studies have shown, for example, that pregnant women face a heightened risk of depression and anxiety, and exposure to these chemicals, especially during the first three months of pregnancy, has a potential knock-on effect for the children, who, as a result of maternal depression, are more likely to experience general psychopathology, exhibit more internalising and externalising problems, and suffer from diminished cognitive functioning as well as to display sub-optimal physical growth. With this in mind, First Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that fire and rescue services in Wales inform their staff of the risks to mental health from exposure to these chemicals, and what steps are you taking to enforce strict codes of practice that reduce the likelihood of chronic exposure? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. There are a number of different points. It's worth reflecting, from the initial question, on the research undertaken by the University of Central Lancashire and what it means. Part of this was about how to protect firefighters from exposure to contaminants that may be linked to cancer. There are broader potential impacts as well, and none of these should surprise us. If you're going into a fire incident, the nature of the chemicals and the change that takes place can't always be accurately predicted. There is, though, an evidence base about the links to exposure and also what that then means for the breathing apparatus provided to firefighters in those circumstances. That underpins the work that's been done, and we have reached agreement on taking forward a number of the recommendations, and fire and rescue authorities are looking at that. Now, obviously, Julie James is now the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the fire service, so we'll be coming back to that, not just through social partnership, but in the updates we get on whether that is being taken forward by fire and rescue authorities based on the recommendations made in the FBU report. So, we have agreed on a programme for work; it's now about making sure that's carried through, and then whether we see an improvement in the physical and mental health impacts for our firefighters.

NHS Dentistry in Arfon

Sian Gwenllian AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the availability of NHS dentistry in Arfon? OQ60946

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. This Government is committed to increasing new patient access as part of dental reform and, since April 2022, over 320,000 new patients have gained access to an NHS dentist across Wales, including nearly 62,000 new patients in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area.

Sian Gwenllian AC: There is no dental practice in Arfon that is receiving new NHS patients, and it appears that they've also had to close their waiting lists. Many of my constituents are unable to access the public dental service, which is an entirely unacceptable situation. A dental academy was opened in Bangor at the end of 2022, with a promise by the health board that this would be the first step to tackle the lack of NHS dentists across north Wales. The academy has been promoted several times by Ministers in the same terms. I understand that the academy has closed its books to NHS patients. They're not accepting NHS patients to be seen, nor are they accepting them on waiting lists either. But they do welcome private patients. Will you intervene as a matter of urgency to ensure that the scheme for the dental academy is delivered in full?

Vaughan Gething AC: My understanding is that the ground floor is now fully operational, with just over 3,000 patients seen since it opened in September 2002. It is still intended that the second floor of the new dental academy will be operational for a community dental service, and that will again take in, obviously, NHS patients. I'm not aware of the individual specifics of the plan for when that should be operational. We do understand that there has been a delay. I'll liaise with the Cabinet Secretary for health to ensure that there is a factual briefing about the current position, but also, from the Member's point, I think it's entirely fair and reasonable for her to expect an update on what can be expected in the future for the provision of NHS dentistry and the capacity we recognise is required, which is why we've actually engaged in looking to create the dental academy in Bangor in the first place. I'm more than happy to make sure the Member gets a proper briefing and update on the future.

Sam Rowlands AS: Siân Gwenllian's absolutely right to raise this, because far too many people in Arfon and across north Wales sadly do not have access to an NHS dentist, an issue that Members in the Chamber have been raising for a long time, an issue that I personally raised with the health Minister more than 12 months ago, and we were told then that this was being sorted. And we've heard just last month from the chairman of the Welsh general dental practice committee, and I quote, that more people might be forced to pull out their own teeth because of the lack of proper access. So, clearly, something isn't working, First Minister. So, what do you say today to people in Arfon and across Wales who are facing the decision of DIY dentistry?

Vaughan Gething AC: We'recommitted to reforming not just the NHS dental contract, but the reason why contract reform matters is because it will unlock new capacity for NHS dentistry. That's why we're investing in that difficult process. But it's actually delivering more capacity within our NHS. And within that, we need to both make sure we have the conversation with the profession and with the public about where we understand there are still gaps, and, where people do return their NHS contracts, to make sure that there is NHS provision that remains available. This is one of the top priorities for the Cabinet Secretary for health. She has proactively made that clear, that she's interested in the future of reform and access to NHS dentistry. It'll carry on being the case that we'll look for opportunities to invest and to make sure we do provide the sort of NHS provision that communities rightly expect.

Carolyn Thomas AS: First Minister, we have heard a lot about problems in accessing dentistry, especially in north Wales, from professional bodies and also constituents, following the pandemic. I understand that there are some promising pilot projects to bring mobile dentistry to schools in north Wales, which is really important for our children. Will this be available more widely?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I am pleased that Carolyn Thomas has referred to the initial stage of the pilot. There is a dental therapist mobile dental facility that is currently co-located at Ysgol y Moelwyn in Blaenau Ffestiniog, and they carry out assessments for 11 and 12-year-old pupils. Those are clinically effective and evidence based. That's one of the things that we're looking to import into the contract to make sure there's a clear evidence base about how dental activity is run and performed. The first stage of that programme is being evaluated and the initial results look positive, so there is a plan to make sure that the mobile unit can move on to more school provision, and the next school should be in the Bala area, with three more schools across north Wales identified. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary for health would be more than happy to make sure the Member is updated on their progress.

The Ongoing Crisis in the Middle East

Alun Davies AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government supporting families in Wales affected by the ongoing crisis in the Middle East? OQ60974

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We remain deeply concerned about the ongoing conflict, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and the wider impacts in the region. We continue to work closely with Jewish and Muslim leaders to support community cohesion and ensure that any victims of hate can continue to get support through the Wales Hate Support Centre.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for that response. My question follows question 2 earlier. I think it's worth us reflecting on what happened to Gill and Pete Brisley from Pencoed. Their daughter, Lianne, lived in Kibbutz Be'eri in southern Israel. The family had two daughters, Yahel, aged 16, and Noiya, aged 13. On 7 October, Lianne was murdered. She was murdered along with both her daughters, Yahel and Noiya. Her husband was taken hostage by Hamas. His brother, Yossi, was also taken hostage that morning. We now know that Yossi was murdered by Hamas whilst in captivity. The whereabouts and status of Eli is still unknown.
The family have been through a brutalising and tragic and horrific experience on 7 October, and we've seen since then the heartbreaking scenes that have unfolded across the middle east, and the impact on people here in Wales. Other Members have expressed that already this afternoon. I've discussed these issues with Huw Irranca-Davies, the local Member for the family, and also I know that Chris Elmore, the MP for the area, has also been active, supporting the family. Would it be possible, First Minister, for you to meet this family, who've been through such a brutal experience, and to look at how we as a Senedd and yourselves as a Welsh Government can provide support for people who have been through these experiences and continue to pray for the safe return of their son-in-law?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think this painfully highlights the very real human impact of what happened not just on 7 October but what has taken place since then as well, and the images that we've all seen on such an appallingly regular basis. You don't need to be a parent to understand the real human tragedy and impact that is unfolding.
I'm pleased that the Member has mentioned that these are constituents of Huw Irranca-Davies. Of course, he is not in a position to ask me questions at this point. I'll be more than happy to work with Alun Davies and Huw Irranca-Davies to understand what practical support we might be able to provide to the family and then to see if this is an individual circumstance where that support may be required, or whether actually there is a wider opportunity to better support people directly affected by the conflict. I know from my own experience in my own constituency that I have families directly affected on all sides of the conflict. So, this isn't just an issue that has taken place somewhere else. There is a real impact in communities right across our own country, which is why we do need to continue to take an interest;even though we're not decision makersin the conflict, we have to deal with the consequences of what is happening and how we properly support our own citizens. We're more than happy to take up that conversation purposefully with the constituency Member and the family, bearing in mind it's also been raised in a previous question by a different Member as well.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Prif Weinidog, this role affords us many opportunities, and the opportunity to hear the Brisleys share their story of the devastating murder of their daughter and two granddaughters in the 7 October attacks carried out by Hamas terrorists is one of the most powerful and poignant events that I've experienced in my time as a Member of this place. It was a privilege to co-sponsor the event with the Member for Blaenau Gwent, and, as he mentioned, the Brisleys' son-in-law Eli remains a hostage, and I'm sure the whole Chamber wishes for his safe and speedy release.
Now, while the Brisleys heard and had correspondence from the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary, they received nothing from the Welsh Government, which, as a Welshman, for me, is a source of regret. Will you confirm to meet with the Brisleys and any other families who have loved ones caught up in the conflict in the middle east?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think what is most important, really, is how we properly support people directly affected. I'm not aware that the Welsh Government has had correspondence from the Brisley family; I know there's been direct contact with Chris Elmore, and I know that the Senedd Member here has had contact with the family in the way that we provide that supportive work. So, I want to understand what contact there has been, and, indeed, how we ensure that ongoing support is appropriate and co-ordinated with and for the family. I think that's the right way forward. And, bearing in mind what I've said to the Member for Blaenau Gwent about wanting to have a purposive way forward that supports the family, to understand not just their individual circumstances, but how we better support people who will undoubtedly be directly affected, is the right way forward.

Challenges Facing the Health Service

Peter Fox AS: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the future challenges facing the health service in Wales? OQ60988

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. Last year, the chief scientific adviser for health published a report describing the challenges that our NHS in Wales is likely to face over the next 10 years. It is our belief that 'A Healthier Wales', our long-term 10-year plan for health and care, remains the appropriate response to those challenges. There will, of course, be funding and resourcing issues to deliver the health service and the care service that we believe the people of Wales deserve.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister. I fear, though, that the Welsh Government's current approach to tackling the crisis in our NHS is far too short-sighted. Having spoken to many GP surgeries, it's clear that they are facing ever-increasing pressures as their workload increases, but this isn't matched with the resources they need. Indeed, many are having to step away from providing services that they don't get paid for but are extremely valued by patients, and this leads to patients entering long waiting lists for procedures once assessed—previously assessed quickly by their GPs. If improving the health service is genuinely a high priority and prevention is crucial to you, will you commit to reviewing GP contracts to ensure that they can provide the levels of care desperately needed by our citizens?

Vaughan Gething AC: There's a couple of points to mention, and the first is a point for the Member, and, I think, for every Member in the Chamber—and I just want to make the point because you represent part of the Aneurin Bevan health board in Gwent—about the current outbreak of measles. I hope it will be a point of agreement that vaccination is a hugely effective intervention, but it's one where we have seen a fall-off in vaccination rates; some of our children and adults are not vaccinated or are under-vaccinated. And, so, actually, whilst in Wales the good news is that we have a better rate of vaccination than England, we actually need to raise our vaccination levels in Wales. We previously saw last year an outbreak in Cardiff, and I hope that all Members across the Senedd, in whatever we say about the health service, can reiterate the need to ensure that vaccinations are undertaken and to support people to go to the catch-up services that are available. Because in the Member's region, there are people who have measles, which is a serious illness, who need not be in that position.
On your broader point about GP contract reform, of course, general practice helps undertake a range of vaccination services. I'm very keen to make sure that we take advantage of the different ways in which we can use the services right across primary care. So, as well as contract reform for our GPs, which is an ongoing process, more steps have been taken by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, as indeed I have undertaken, as indeed have previous health Ministers, a number of whom are available in this room. So, that contract reform will carry on. The purpose of it is to make sure that we properly reward and support our GPs and the wider primary healthcare team to deliver healthcare in a context that is constantly changing. People often think of accident and emergency departments as the front door of the health service; actually, the biggest front door is general practice, where the great majority of contacts take place. That's also why, in addition to contract reform for GPs, we have progressively and successively looked at contract reform for pharmacy, community pharmacy, but also for high-street optometry services as well—opticians, in old money, depending on your vintage—in addition to what we were talking about earlier, and that's dental reform as well. There's a massive reform process, and each year we make more progress on a better use of our resources, a better use of the time of health and care professionals, and that is a road we must continue to travel down.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. One of the really key things that you need when you're assessing a health service is data. And just to draw us back to the issue around dentistry, it is the case that the Welsh Government still does not have a centralised waiting list for those people who need an NHS dentist. So that, to me, says that you don't know what the need is across Wales. Some health boards do have a waiting list—Powys is one. In Powys, if you're looking for an NHS dentist, you phone up a helpline, they take your details and, as soon as a space becomes available for an NHS dentist, they let you know. Now that is a good system. Sadly, that is not the situation in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. And it's staggering that you had to learn that the situation in Dwyfor Meirionnydd is that nobody can access an NHS dentist. So, surely the way forward is for the Welsh Government to move forward to have a centralised waiting list that makes sure that you know what the demand is, you know what the need is and therefore you're able to respond. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there is much that is not just sensible in what the Member has said, but it's actually where this Welsh Government wants to get to as well. And I can tell her that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regularly talks to me about the need to ensure that we have more investment in our digital and data systems within the NHS so that they're fit for purpose, they can help both the professional practitioners, but also the individual person, to take part in their own treatment and care, and to understand where those opportunities exist to do better.
We are looking at the system you referred to in Powys, the roll-out and the lessons learned, to use Powys as a first example for the roll-out of a national system. It is later than any of us would have wanted, but we are committed to doing so. And as you said, it's really important to understand where that unmet need is and then how we deploy resources to meet the needs of the person who needs health and care support, and to make sure that we have our staff and resource in the right position. So, I'm hopeful that, in the coming months, you'll get to see more about not just what the roll-out looks like, but then the lessons learned from that initial phase. Then, I would like to see greater pace injected into that roll-out across the country, as I know the Member would do too.

The Local Air Quality Grants Scheme

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact on Wales of the UK Government scrapping the local air quality grants scheme? OQ60986

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The UK Government’s decision not to fund its local air quality grant scheme does not impact Wales. It solely supports English local authorities, which will not have access to that scheme. However, in Wales, on 19 April, the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs agreed a £1 million budget for Wales’s local air quality management support fund for the financial year that we are now in.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Well, thank you very much, First Minister, for looking into that and also for the response of the Cabinet Secretary, because we know that thousands of children are living on polluted roads. They don't choose to live there, they are obliged to live there because that is the only choice open to them. And we absolutely have to bear down on this as one of the main sources of pollutants, along with fossil fuels generally, both used for heating and for driving motor cars. So, I wondered if you could tell us if the scheme that the Welsh Government is now going to push ahead with will not be impacted in any way by the consequentials that might have been received by the Welsh Government as a result of the UK Government simply turning its back on air pollution, it would seem.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there are two broad points to mention. The first is that the decision made by Steve Barclay is simply for England. He decided not to carry on funding local air quality management scheme support in England. That would have been £6 million in England that is now not going to happen because he's scrapped the scheme. Actually, what we're doing in Wales with the £1 million that Huw Irranca-Davies has decided to invest in this area does mean that we're going to carry on the support. The contrast, I think, is that if in Wales we had gone ahead with a scheme of a similar size to the £6 million in England, then it would have been an approximate two-thirds reduction in the scheme that we're undertaking. So, actually, the level of support here in Wales is significantly better even if England had gone ahead with the scheme that it has.
We recognise the environmental health and well-being benefits that improved air quality can deliver. We recognise we have really challenging spots in different communities in Wales. This is about how we'll support communities and local authorities to try and make a real difference and to then understand the broader action we need to take countrywide. So, I do believe that there is a more positive future for us, a future that looks at air quality, that looks at the future of our economy, that looks at the future of transport. Our journey to net zero is an important one for us in environmental health terms, and I believe—and you'll hear later today from the economy and energy Secretary—actually, a future that looks for more investment and more opportunities in a genuinely sustainable economy.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8, Cefin Campbell.

Future of Railways in Mid and West Wales

Cefin Campbell AS: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of railways in Mid and West Wales? OQ60982

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: We are focusing on improving rail services, integrating public transport options, and meeting the needs of future generations across Mid and West Wales.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you very much. We've heard the Government saying a number of times that getting people out of their cars is a key priority, and that of course is in order to address climate change and also to reach net zero. I hope I can assume that the new Minister for transport is of the same view as his predecessor on this issue. If so, I have to say that not only is this not being delivered in Mid and West Wales, but I fear that things have moved backwards, if I'm honest. I've mentioned on a number of occasions in this Chamber the impacts of cuts to bus services in rural areas, and the poor service on our railways too, which have the worst customer satisfaction scores in the UK. And we've heard recently about further cuts to the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales line. This means services being cut from five times a day to four times a day from December this year onwards, and scrapping evening services from Swansea to Llandrindod Wells and Llandovery. Can I ask you, First Minister: how can you ask people to leave their vehicles if we can't provide public transport that is reliable?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. I think this recognises some of the challenges we have, not just in financing, but in getting more people to use the options that we have.
So, on the bus grant, we've been through this many times in the Chamber, and our ability to keep on supporting the service and the network ahead of the re-regulation of buses and how we persuade more people to use our transport system. I actually am firmly convinced, as indeed is the whole of this Government, that re-regulating the buses with a Bill that'll be introduced in this Senedd term will not just be a better way of organising the service, it'll actually deliver better value for money and allow us to then invest in and expand the network.
When it comes to rail, of course, which is much more expensive than buses, the review that's been undertaken by Transport for Wales has looked at the Heart of Wales line and the real challenges of a very poorly used service with a significant subsidy on it. They're looking at how they can then invest in different routes, including bus services, to make sure there are real public transport options. They've done that by consulting openly with elected representatives, and indeed looking at rail passenger groups to understand the reality of how that service that is proposed to move from five to four is actually being currently used and what that might mean in the future. These are the choices that are our public transport services are going to need to make, not just within our budget envelope, but then how we persuade more people to make effective use of the services that we have, and allow us a platform to invest in them in the future, and I look forward to being able to do just that.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item, therefore, will be the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are two changes to this week's business. Two of today's oral statements have been extended to 45 minutes and the titles have been updated. Finally, the time allocated to tomorrow’s Senedd Commission questions has been reduced to 10 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Russell George AC: The newly appointed NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee met this morning, Trefnydd, and, disappointingly, voted on a decision to accept the closure of Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases. I'm disappointed, therefore, that there is not a statement in this Chamber this afternoon, or scheduled for tomorrow, on such an important issue that affects tens of thousands of people across mid and north Wales.
But also, Minister, it's not just the public who are concerned with this proposal. In Powys, for example, we have no district general hospital, so we're more dependent on a critical air ambulance service, and so many clinicians based at the Welshpool and Caernarfon bases are also opposing the decision as well on clinical grounds, and clinicians and professionals across other areas as well. Also, Minister, Powys health board and Betsi Cadwaladr health board rejected these proposals as well at this morning's meeting. So, this is not just members of the public; these are professionals as well saying that this is the wrong decision. I'd therefore like the Minister to consider calling in this decision, to allow for proper scrutiny, and for this decision to be made by Welsh Ministers following debate in this Chamber.
There's also concern about the process. Originally, proposals were leaked over two years ago to close Welshpool and Caernarfon bases, and, at the time, that was based on evidence, we were told, that 583 additional scene attendances would be achieved. That has since been discredited, and it seems that, since then, evidence has tried to be found to fit the original proposals made two years ago. I'm appalled at how this process has developed over the past two years—the lack of transparency and a lack of listening to the public and professionals as well. So, can I ask, Trefnydd, that the health Minister, or the First Minister, make a statement to this Chamber, either today or tomorrow, and make themselves available to answer questions on such an important issue to the people of mid and north Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Russell George. It is important that you have had this opportunity today in the business statement to raise this point, because the final decision, as you said, which comes after 18 months of engagement, was made earlier today by the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. Plans will now be developed to consolidate services currently provided at Welshpool and Caernarfon at a new site in north-east Wales, and this will mean that everyone who currently receives those emergency medical retrieval and transfer services will continue to receive care.
Obviously, you've been involved, as you say, Russell—and colleagues—with the engagement. There's been much correspondence setting out concerns and questions, but the evidence is that the change will improve access to this life-saving service for people in parts of Wales who currently have no or limited access at night. So, we understand the strength of feeling expressed by people living in parts of mid and north Wales, especially in those close to the existing bases, but, ultimately, the decision will improve the care and outcomes for people in north and mid Wales if they suffer a life-threatening emergency that requires EMRTS support, especially at night.
I would also add that the joint commissioning committee has been assured by the chief ambulance services commissioner that all concerns have been addressed through correspondence with the relevant parties. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has received written assurances from the review team about the level of engagement undertaken and how local residents' feedback has informed the review process.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statements, if I may. The first statement that I would like is from the First Minister, responding to all of the reports around the £200,000 that he accepted as part of his leadership campaign. We have heard questions once again this week, and we don't feel that the answers are adequate. For the credibility of this Senedd, we need a full statement, an unambiguous statement, from the First Minister, so that we can get the necessary answers for us as a Senedd.
Secondly, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport in terms of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. You will be aware that we had a written statement from his predecessor, but you will also know that many Members in this Chamber are very eager to see the Government making progress in this area, including, of course, the Welsh Youth Parliament, who were determined that this should proceed. It's important that we have an opportunity to ask questions and also to understand what the Welsh Government's priorities are in ensuring that nobody misses a day's school because they can't afford the bus.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Heledd Fychan, for your questions.

Jane Hutt AC: In terms of your first question, extensive discussion has already taken place on this issue. The emergency question, in fact, wasn't approved by the Llywydd today and has been fully addressed today by the First Minister. And also, just in terms of the response the First Minister gave this morning about the role and the work that's being undertaken now, which was supported by the Welsh executive committee this weekend, a review is being undertaken of our leadership contest arrangements. So, a clear process is now in place with that proposal. And also, obviously, to follow up what the First Minister said, all donations to the campaigns were legally compliant and were reported transparently. The review will report in the autumn, and the panel will begin its work shortly.
Also, in terms of the questions that have been raised in terms of the Development Bank of Wales, again, there have been extensive responses to that as well. But I think it is important, yet again, just to say, or add perhaps to responses that were given by the First Minister today, that investment decisions being taken by the Development Bank of Wales are wholly independent of the Welsh Government. And also, I'll just perhaps add that the framework document between the Welsh Government and the development bank sets out how the relationship between Government and the bank is managed and operated. And just to quote, it explicitly states that, 'Welsh Ministers and Welsh Government officials shall take no part in day-to-day operational matters, commercial matters or decision making throughout the DBW group, specifically no interference from Welsh Government on investment operations.'

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Mike Hedges.

Jane Hutt AC: Sorry, I've got a second question from Heledd Fychan. I will raise this, in terms of an update on the learner travel Measure, with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, and I'm sure that that will be forthcoming.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm asking for two statements. The first is on housing. I've delivered over 3,000 leaflets across Swansea East in April, and between 1 per cent and 2 per cent of all properties were empty. Together with the failure of the Westminster Government to raise local housing allowance, this has led to an increased shortage of affordable properties. I'm asking for an update on local housing allowances and whether the Welsh Government could consider what further action can be taken regarding long-term empty properties.
The second statement I'm asking for is on physician associates. Physician associates are graduates who are undertaking postgraduate training and work under the supervision of a doctor. What thought was given to formally designing and evidencing the role, and how will it be evaluated? Because if it works well, it could transform primary care.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Your first question on housing is crucially important. As you noticed—and I think we all do as we campaign in our constituencies, our communities, and meet people on the street—we recognise that empty homes are there, and they're a blight and a nuisance on our communities. It's important just to remind colleagues that, in January last year, the Welsh Government announced an empty homes grant scheme, to bring up to 2,000 long-term empty properties back into use. Grants of up to £25,000 are available for home owners, or prospective home owners, to remove significant hazards from their properties to make them safe to live in and to improve their energy efficiency. We're also supporting local authorities to use their full range of legislative powers at their disposal to tackle empty properties. This actually includes training for councillors and officials across local government on using enforcement measures to deal with empty properties. Also, to reassure colleagues across the Chamber, the empty homes grants scheme has a budget of £25 million in this financial year, and work is being accelerated to bring empty properties back into use and complement our existing schemes.
Your second question also is a really important question around physician associates. They are graduates, they've undertaken postgraduate training and they work, as you say, under the supervision of a doctor. We're committed to developing multidisciplinary team working around the patient, and this includes the use of physician associates in primary care. There's been a lot of interest, as you've raised, Mike Hedges, in Wales and the rest of the UK, with the BMA, the Royal College of Anaesthetists and the General Medical Council. There's a lot of comment on this. BMA Cymru has raised concerns about the deployment and scope of practice of physicians within NHS Wales, but we would like to say, as a Welsh Government, that physician associates are an important and valued part of the NHS Wales workforce, and we're working closely in terms of ensuring that there's a gradual increase in the NHS Wales physician associate workforce. Obviously, there is robust evidence being gathered on the benefit that can be derived from those roles in very specific settings and contexts.

Paul Davies AC: Trefnydd, I'm getting up again in this Chamber to request an urgent statement on the situation at Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency. As has already been raised this afternoon, there are very serious concerns over the donation that the First Minister received from the Dauson Environmental Group, which operates this landfill site. I share Members' concerns about the donation and agree that it's absolutely crucial that this matter is independently investigated. But more importantly, in the meantime, my constituents have to continue to live with the stink and the stench coming from the Withyhedge landfill site. As I've said before, this is an environmental and, indeed, a public health issue. Therefore, the Welsh Government must make a statement explaining its position in relation to this ongoing issue. Does the Welsh Government believe it's acceptable that the people of Pembrokeshire continue to suffer? My constituents and I are absolutely clear the operator should have its licence immediately revoked and the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales should take this action with immediate effect.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Paul Davies, for your question. As I responded last week, this is a really important issue in terms of the impact on your community and residents. Also, it is the responsibility of Natural Resources Wales, as you know, to monitor, inspect and review. I will take this back to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs in terms of the impacts, again, that you bring forward to us in the business statement today—the adverse impacts on your community.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for a statement on public transport in our rural communities, please? Last week, we had an understanding that Transport for Wales intends to cut the Cambrian line services, as we've heard. There will be four services fewer a day, with services extended in the summer for visitors, disenfranchising those people who live in those communities who are served by this line and who are dependent on it for their education, for employment, for shopping and other essentials. This, of course, follows cuts to the bus services—the T2, the T3 and the 32—which means that people are now dependent on cars or lifts from family and friends. In all of these cases, we haven't received any kind of valid or adequate consultation. In terms of the railway, it follows the fact that the Government has withdrawn the Llanbedr road funding, encouraging people to use public transport, and now the people of Llanbedr can't use the railway as often. So, can you ensure that this isn't going to happen, and ask the Minister for transport to give an urgent statement to us on these issues, to demonstrate how this Government is going to provide appropriate public transport for the people of Dwyfor Meirionnydd and rural areas?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor—crucial points that I'm sure you will be raising with the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport this afternoon as he gives a statement on his transport priorities. But also, to recognise—and I think a question came to the First Minister from your colleague—it's really important that we look at this from a rural perspective as well. This is very much cross-Government in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. Clearly, there are pressures, but, actually, Transport for Wales challenges over the last year have turned a corner, consistently seeing improvements, but also looking at what can be afforded and where the travel habits of passengers post COVID are clearer. Again, I'm sure those questions will be for the Cabinet Secretary later on this afternoon.

Julie Morgan AC: I'd like a statement on what the Welsh Government continues to do to protect children's rights. I'm sure the Trefnydd is aware that, last week, the Royal College of Paediatricians and Child Health published a report with wide publicity calling for the UK Government and Northern Ireland Assembly to follow the lead shown by Wales and Scotland and get rid of the defence of reasonable punishment, making it illegal for parents to use physical punishment against their children. The report also brought forward evidence showing that children are 2.6 times more likely to experience mental health problems if physically punished and are much more likely to behave in a more violent manner later on in life if physically punished. So, would she agree that, in Wales, we've made a very positive move when we did change the law and that similar legislation should be brought in as quickly as possible in England and Northern Ireland so that all children living there, including Welsh children, of course, living in those countries or visiting those countries, have the same protection against physical punishment as children do here in Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. Can I just also acknowledge and recognise the powerful role that you've played? You indeed delivered the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020, which came into force in March 2022. Can we recognise again today across this Chamber that this was a historic step in protecting children's rights and welfare, which you took forward in your former ministerial role, but, indeed, campaigned for for many years before that, and, indeed, sought to make that change in England when you were an MP for Cardiff North as well? I remember those times when you were calling for that.
I think what is important about this—and we take enormous pride as the Welsh Government in having removed the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales—is that this law is giving children equal protection from assault as adults have. It shows how we value our children and respect and support their right to be protected from violence. Also, you were giving that further evidence that came forth from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health about protecting children's rights and evidence of the impact in terms of mental health. I'm very pleased to say that the latest survey results, which I'm sure you're aware of, on ending the physical punishment of children, continue to show high levels of awareness of the law. We've worked hard before and after implementation, which you drove forward, to make sure people were fully informed of the change and what it would mean for them. Over two thirds of those with caring responsibilities for children under seven don't see any justification for physically punishing a child and they support the law, a clear indication that we in Wales have turned a corner and are determined to show how we value our children and respect and support their right to be protected from violence. Thank you for your leadership on this matter.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements today, please, Trefnydd, with, first, an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health on the prevention of future death reports in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? As you may know, the health board recorded 28 of these reports in a 16-month period. This is more than all of the other Welsh health boards combined, and it's a statistic that, of course, is very troubling for patients and their loved ones across the whole of north Wales. Quite rightly, they've been calling for an independent inquiry into why that health board doesn't appear to be learning from its mistakes, and I agree with them. I think we need an opportunity to question the Minister about this, given that, in reports over the weekend, it's suggested that she didn't feel that an independent inquiry into these deaths and why there was such a volume of them in north Wales was appropriate.
Secondly, I'd like to receive an update from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on the issue of unadopted roads. Sandy Cove in Kinmel Bay, which has around 250 properties on unadopted roads, experienced flooding during storm Pierrick just over 10 days ago. Part of the consequence of that flooding was made worse because of the lack of drainage on that estate. It clearly needs an improvement to the drainage infrastructure. Those roads need to be up to an adoptable standard, and the poor condition of them is making life a misery for local residents. So, we do need some updates from the Cabinet Secretary on the work that the Welsh Government is taking forward to address this issue of unadopted roads. I know that there has been an unadopted roads fund that has been established in Wales in recent years, but I don't think it's making sufficient progress on this matter, and we need to move it forward.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, and thank you very much for those two questions. In fact, that point about Betsi Cadwaladr came up last week as well—I'm not sure if you were in the Chamber at that time—but it was an important issue that was raised, particularly to feed back on that point that the health board, Betsi Cadwaladr, has established an investigations and learning programme, and the medical director is the nominated senior responsible officer. That's got direct oversight from the chief executive and the wider executive team. It's important that that's also linked closely to the quality, safety and experience committee so that it can escalate issues and make sure the process is robust in place. Clearly, the Cabinet Secretary is keeping a close watch on what is happening in terms of these issues and you will have the opportunity to question her when she comes forward for her oral questions shortly.
You also raise an important point about the impact of flooding and, of course, this is particularly relating to unadopted roads. I think it's important that this is very much a cross-Government issue as well in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport, who will be giving his statement this afternoon on transport priorities, in terms of an opportunity there for you to raise these issues. But it's also, in terms of the infrastructure, an issue for the Minister for climate change and rural affairs in terms of the impact of the storm and flooding. So, again, thank you for raising that this afternoon.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I would like to request a statement, if I may, from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice on the state of disability employment support here in Wales, following the shameful announcement by the UK Government on the scrapping of the Work and Health Programme. This decision, coupled with plans to cut disability benefits for 420,000 people, raises grave concern over the job prospects for disabled individuals here in Wales. Department for Work and Pensions research this year showed that the Work and Health Programme helped participants find paid work 27 per cent more often, with over 80 per cent satisfied with the personalised support. Many charities and disabled people now fear that, without this tailored employment support, employers may revert to discriminatory hiring practices against disabled job applicants. So, I would like the Minister, please, to raise this issue with her equivalent in the UK Parliament to express our severe concern and to ask for that decision to be reversed. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I'm particularly glad that you've raised this issue because, amongst the announcements that came at the end of last week and over the weekend, which were announcements made by the Prime Minister—announcements that were about the fact that he wants to cut benefits for 420,000 sick and disabled people; that was the headline—underneath the headline, there was this cut of £100 million to the Work and Health Programme, which is operating in England and Wales, and we understand that it's going to end in the autumn, providers have been told. It has been an important programme. It was launched back in November 2017 and it had some EU funding. It was primarily a voluntary scheme, aimed at helping disabled people into work. This, as I said, was in the context of a much wider policy coming from the Prime Minister, from Rishi Sunak, who wants to cut benefits, and, as you say, charities have described this as a full-time assault on disabled people.
There will be a consultation, I understand, as well, on personal independence payments, which help disabled people cover extra costs of living with an impairment or ill health. So, just to reassure Jane Dodds and the Senedd, this is something that the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice will be raising with the UK Government. We actually do have bilateral arrangements there, as part of the inter-ministerial Government procedures, to meet directly with the UK Government Ministers on social security, and we will be reminding them that these reforms don't align with our vision for a compassionate, equitable and fair benefits system. We very clearly set that out in our Welsh Government Welsh benefits charter, and we are very concerned that these changes have the potential to widen inequalities in society and to push more people into poverty.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Business Secretary, I'm asking again, for the second week running, for an urgent statement from the Welsh Government on the Cass review and, of course, what it means for future Welsh gender services in Wales.
May I say that I was glad to see Welsh Labour finally ban puberty blockers? But, this was through no policy change of your own but as a result of England doing so and therefore resulting, of course, in there being no pathway for under-18s to received prescribed puberty blockers. This Senedd needs clarity, Cabinet Secretary. It would be preferable in an oral statement—either that or a written statement, but we need clarity. People are calling for it from all corners of Wales now. The Government needs to be clear on this. England, last week, had a statement and questions on the important Cass review report, and even Scotland, this week, will have a statement and questions on the report. Yet, here in Wales, we are still waiting for a statement, still waiting for this Welsh Government to admit that they've got it wrong and still waiting for clarity over what this means for gender services for people, going forward. It is wrong that a statement hasn't yet been forthcoming. We need answers. Wales needs answers and we need a statement, please, Cabinet Secretary, and we need it urgently.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for the question, which I did respond to last week, and I will repeat what I said last week in response to your question, Laura Anne Jones. The Cass review, we know and we understand, aims to ensure that children and young people who are questioning their gender identity or are experiencing gender dysphoria and require support from the NHS receive a high standard of care that meets their needs and is safe, holistic and effective. We're committed to improving the gender identity development pathway and the support available for young people in Wales in line with the commitments in our LGBTQ+ action plan. We will consider the report findings. We will continue to be driven by evidence that best supports the needs of the young people of Wales who are questioning their gender. We commission gender identity services for young people from NHS England, and NHS Wales is represented on the gender dysphoria services transformation programme board in England. And the work of that programme has already been shaped by the findings in the interim Cass report. But I do want to also add the point this afternoon that the transformation programme has made good progress following the interim Cass review, and this includes two new children and young people gender services, which opened this month. Up to eight regional centres will be commissioned and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee will be working with NHS England to consider a regional centre in Wales. Progress also includes the establishment of the national Children and Young People's Gender Dysphoria Research Oversight Board, chaired by Professor Sir Simon Wessely. And the joint commissioning committee will now work with the transformation programme as they develop an implementation plan following consideration of the final Cass report. But I think, also, we must recognise that our young people in Wales must and do have the opportunity to express their views and to influence the way forward in Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Trefnydd.

Motions to elect Members to committees

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the motions to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, unless there are any objections, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, I will call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Heledd Fychan.

Motion NNDM8546 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Mark Drakeford (Welsh Labour) in place of Jack Sargeant (Welsh Labour) and Sam Rowlands (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Gareth Davies (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Health and Social Care Committee.

Motion NNDM8547 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
1. In accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Hefin David (Welsh Labour) and Jack Sargeant (Welsh Labour) as a members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.
2. In accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Tom Giffard (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Laura Anne Jones (Welsh Conservatives), and Gareth Davies (Welsh Conservatives) in place of James Evans (Welsh Conservatives), as members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.

Motion NNDM8548 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Mark Drakeford (Welsh Labour) in place of John Griffiths (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Standards of Conduct Committee.

Motion NNDM8549 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Julie Morgan (Welsh Labour) in place of Jenny Rathbone (Welsh Labour) and Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour) in place of Huw Irranca-Davies (Welsh Labour) as members of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee.

Motion NNDM8550 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Lee Waters (Welsh Labour) in place of Hefin David (Welsh Labour) and Laura Anne Jones (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Tom Giffard (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee.

Motion NNDM8551 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jenny Rathbone (Welsh Labour) in place of Buffy Williams (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee.

Motion NNDM8552 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects John Griffiths (Welsh Labour) in place of Buffy Williams (Welsh Labour), and Peter Fox (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Joel James (Welsh Conservatives), as members of the Petitions Committee.

Motion NNDM8553 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Buffy Williams (Welsh Labour) in place of Jack Sargeant (Welsh Labour) and James Evans (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Altaf Hussain (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee.

Motion NNDM8554 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
1. In accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee.
2. In accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Julie Morgan (Welsh Labour) in place of Sarah Murphy (Welsh Labour) and Joel James (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Altaf Hussain (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee.

Motion NNDM8555 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jack Sargeant (Welsh Labour) in place of Jayne Bryant (Welsh Labour), Lee Waters (Welsh Labour) in place of Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour), Altaf Hussain (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Sam Rowlands (Welsh Conservatives), and James Evans (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Joel James (Welsh Conservatives) as members of the Local Government and Housing Committee.

Motions moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: I formally move.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The motions are formally moved. The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, the motions are agreed, and the Members have been elected to the various committees.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

3. Questions to the Counsel General

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 3 is next, the questions to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Gareth Davies.

Youth Reoffenders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can Gareth Davies's microphone be unmuted, please?

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Llywydd.

Gareth Davies AS: 1. How does the youth justice blueprint for Wales address the increasing frequency of offences committed by each youth re-offender? OQ60956

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The youth justice blueprint sets out our vision for youth justice in Wales. This includes reducing the number of children in the youth justice system through effective diversion activity, preventing reoffending and supporting children to live rewarding, crime-free lives.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Counsel General. I would like to congratulate you on your reappointment to your position last week, as I believe that this is your first questions session since your reappointment. So, congratulations on our behalf. I would appreciate it if you could make an assessment regarding the success of the Youth Justice Blueprint for Wales, and whether the blueprint adequately addresses the frequency rate of offences committed per reoffender.
The blueprint addresses youth recidivism, which has been coming down across England and Wales for the past decade, but the frequency rate of offences is still very high. The most recent data for south Wales demonstrate an increase in the number of offences committed by each offender. Youth criminality is a concern in Wales, given its disproportionate nature. The 18-25 age group in Wales accounts for approximately 12 per cent of the total population, but we know that 18 to 25-year-olds are committing 33 per cent of all recorded crime in south Wales, as one example.
Although some statistics are looking good, other things are moving in the wrong direction. Although good work is being undertaken to prevent young people from engaging in criminality to begin with, the frequency rate would imply that not enough is being done to address young people already in that cycle of crime. So, given that the Counsel General is responsible for youth justice and probation policy development, and given that the Welsh Government wishes to see youth crime and justice devolved, how is the Welsh Government looking to tackle the issue of offence frequency among youth reoffenders in Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Could I thank you for what I thought was an incisive question, and a very pertinent question, in terms of the work that's going on at the moment, with regard to looking at the issues of youth justice and probation. As you know, at the moment, responsibility for criminal justice, including youth justice, is a reserved matter, but many aspects of it, quite rightly, are devolved Welsh services, and they are integral to the youth justice system. In fact, they are the major part, I think, of the youth justice system: issues around housing, education, healthcare and so on.
I think that it is also important to recognise, of course, that the youth justice blueprint, which we operate, is something that has been agreed jointly, in co-operation between the Welsh Government, the UK Government, policing in Wales and, indeed the Youth Justice Board. One of the areas that we are concerned with, obviously, is the availability of adequate and full disaggregation of data, so you can fully understand what is happening in various parts of Wales. We do have a number of interventions as well. So, the children and communities grant includes the promoting positive engagement fund.
What has happened with youth justice over the decade,and I understand the point you're making in terms of indications that there is a rise in reoffending and in certain areas in terms of crime, is, nevertheless that—. The objective being to keep young people out of the criminal justice system, to look for diversionary measures as soon as possible, is something that, looking over the decade, has been extremely successful. So, for example, whereas there has been some increases in reoffences in some areas, I think it's worth noting that offending by children has significantly reduced over the past 10 years. The youth justice data analysts provided the data—. Data is not always available, but the data we do have certainly shows us that, according to the Youth Justice Board, published statistics in 2021 showed that there were 613 young people in Wales who'd received a caution or conviction—now, that is 76 per cent fewer than in 2013-14. So, the progress that's been made, and the success in the youth justice area, is, I think, important, but I don't think there is any grounds for complacency.
I think the approach that we've adopted is the correct approach, recognising the impact of early years experiences on children, but also looking at the most important way of actually keeping young people out of the future criminal justice system, which is by that early intervention. So, the figures we have are much lower than they've been in the past. The increase in first-time entrance into the justice system is lower than it has been in the past, but there is considerable attention being given to how we actually not only maintain that, but how do we actually improve it.
I recently attended the counterparts in terms of youth justice in Scotland, and was very impressed with the work that is going on in terms of very early intervention in terms of identification of people who are on that criminal pathway. And by criminality, it's not just young people who might commit an offence, it is also the exploitation of young people that brings them into the criminal system as well. So, the prevention framework, I think, is something that brings all the evidence and work together into one place. That's the direction we want to go in. I think it is also the case—. That is why it is so important, I think, that youth justice is something that is devolved, because we need to actually have that consistent setting of youth justice policy and its engagement with 90 per cent of its functions, which are already devolved functions.

John Griffiths AC: Counsel General, I believe it's very important, when we look at youth justice, that we take a child-centred approach, and see a child as a child first and an offender second, and I'm very pleased to say that this is the approach of the Newport youth justice service's team. They've actually been lauded by the UniversityofWarwickfor taking a unique and groundbreaking approach in relation to their Levelling the Playing Field project, which uses the power of sport for these purposes. So, I wonder, Counsel General, would you congratulate the Newport youth justice service's team for this approach and this work, and might you be willing to meet with them?

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, I would be happy to meet and, indeed, I've met with a number of the youth service teams around Wales and, indeed, I met with some of their equivalents in Scotland. And what I can say is that the work that they are doing is impressive and often very, very difficult, and requires an enormous amount of commitment. What is, I think, clear is that there are two aspects. Of course, up to 18, young people then become adults, but, of course, all the evidence is that the 18 to 25 element is just as important, as people are still forming, moving into adulthood, and understanding that interconnectivity between those two is absolutely vital. But I do commend—. I would be happy to meet with any youth justice service to actually talk about this. And, in fact, there's been an enormous amount of work going work, and engagement, really looking towards the preparation for the devolution of youth justice in the future.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Obviously, this sits absolutely on the jagged edge of criminal justice, with criminal justice not being devolved, but I'm very glad to hear that you're working so closely, and you continue to do so, on this really important issue. I'd like to applaud this blueprint for reducing massively the numbers of children who are actually sent into offender institutions, because this normally actually exacerbates the problem, partly because of their young age and their impressionability, and there’s a recruitment into much deeper levels of criminality.
It’s 12 months since the Equality and Social Justice Committee published our report, '60 per cent—Giving them a voice' on speech, language and communications difficulties experienced by the youth justice system, and after the youth justice summit convened on 24 January by the former Minister for Social Justice, where Neath Port Talbot was lauded for the excellence of its service, it isn’t 60 per cent, it’s more like 80 per cent, if Neath Port Talbot is to be believed, because they are the blueprint for the services we want across Wales. What our report was asking for was an increase in the number of speech, language and communications therapists in our youth justice services because 80 per cent, four in five, of these young people simply don’t understand what the court is telling them and probably never understood what their teacher was telling them, either. So, it has to be a really important service to ensure that young people are listened to and that we are putting in place the right service for that individual.

Mick Antoniw AC: I think you make a very important point. I sat in the youth court in Cardiff recently and listened to a number of the cases there, and what was very clear to me was that, I think with every individual that appeared there, you could look at a background of either poverty or disadvantage. But you also saw that, in terms of the issues around the understanding, the engagement, the communication, quite often there were a lot of people who'd been failed by the education system, basically, who had dropped out of the education system. Hence the sort of approach we have of intervention and support is exactly the right direction to go. It's got to be treating young people as young people, and also putting them first in their interest, and looking at how they can be kept out of the criminal justice system by the right sort of interventions, and recognition of that. That's also what I saw when I was in Scotland, and I'm sure exactly the same thing is happening in parts of England as well. There has been a very massive shift, I think, in our thinking about young people, certainly from when I was a teenager, to how the system is now operating, and in particularly to how it has changed, certainly in Wales, over the past decade or so with the move in that particular direction.

Replacing the Vagrancy Act 1824

Gareth Davies AS: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding timescales for introducing legislation to replace the Vagrancy Act 1824? OQ60957

Mick Antoniw AC: The Criminal Justice Bill, introducing legislation to replace the Vagrancy Act, is being considered in line with established constitutional procedures. Welsh Government laid a legislative consent memorandum covering the Bill on 29 January. We expect a date for Report Stage to be announced soon.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I think there is broad agreement that the Georgian legislation that is enforced in Wales is no longer fit for purpose. It was reported two weeks ago that 2,500 arrests have been made in England and Wales since 2019, and of course some of these may be legitimate anti-social behaviour issues, but often homeless people have been targeted and victimised under this Act, which is completely unacceptable.
The UK Government announced that it wished to repeal the Vagrancy Act once replacement legislation was prepared, but there was a disagreement over the content of the replacement Bill. There has been a lot of misinformation and scaremongering over the contents of this Bill, which has led to it being omitted from the King’s Speech, thus keeping the Vagrancy Act on the statute book for longer.
It is understandable that replacement legislation must take into account the potential for problematic anti-social behaviour that disrupts the lives of businesses and the public, and I think that can be addressed in a compassionate way. With the dust settling on the replacement Bill and a new Home Secretary in place, has the Counsel General had discussions with the UK Government regarding their intentions to replace the Vagrancy Act and what their timescale is for doing this?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question and thank you for raising this particular issue. Obviously, the discussions that would take place in terms of the policy and issues around the legislative consent issues would, obviously, primarily engage a Cabinet Secretary in respect of this. But, obviously, there are issues that have been raised that are in the Criminal Justice Bill that do cause deep concern. On the one hand, obviously, the issue of abolishing the Vagrancy Act 1824, this 200-year-old appalling piece of legislation, is absolutely right. But I have to say that we think that the way in which UK Government has approached it is actually wholly wrong.
As you know, we had a legislative consent memorandum on 29 January, and that underlined, really, the deep concerns that we have with the proposals in the Bill, and things like so-called nuisance begging, nuisance rough-sleeping and so on, which would replace the Vagrancy Act. And I have to say that there's a real concern about what seems to be a suggestion of criminalising homeless people. I was very interested really that the magazine, The Big Issue, that really addresses a lot of the homeless issues—. I was very concerned reading one of the reports from a whistleblower in UK Government, one of the civil servants, who said this:
'I have never been so ashamed to call myself a civil servant. The code requires us to work on whatever the government wants us to, but after years of crackpot Tory ideas, I can’t take it anymore. Criminalising homelessness has been the straw that has broken the camel’s back.'
And I very much agreed with the comments made by Bob Blackman, again, a Conservative MP, who said that the proposals were outrageous and worse than vagrancy. Can I say that criminalising homeless people is not a solution to homelessness? The idea that someone who's homeless could be fined up to £2,500 is absolutely ludicrous in terms of the belief that such a fine could ever be paid. And the idea of imprisonment is, again, a totally contradictory objective.
The approach that we've taken in Wales is to take a person-centred approach to assist people off the streets. I think recent changes to our legislation highlight that all the rough-sleepers are a priority for housing and homelessness assistance. Again, as I've just reiterated in my last point, criminalising homeless people is not a solution to this. I do think UK Government is going in exactly the wrong direction on this, and I'm hoping that there will be room for substantial changes, and certainly these parts, to improve it. There'd be nothing worse than replacing the Vagrancy Act with something that's even worse that the Vagrancy Act.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Can I be heard? Yes. In which case, public inquiries are major investigations convened by a Government Minister. The only justification required for a public inquiry is the existence of public concern about a particular event or set of events. Although initiated and funded by Government, public inquiries are run independently. Your responsibilities as Counsel General include provision of legal advice to the Welsh Government. On 21 March, the Institute for Fiscal Studies released their 'Major challenges for education in Wales' report, which found that the latest round of Programme for International Student Assessment scores brought those in Wales to their lowest-ever level, significantly below the average across Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries and significantly below those seen across the rest of the UK, that low educational outcomes are not likely to be a reflection of higher poverty in Wales, a different ethnic mix of pupils, statistical biases or differences in resources, and that they're more likely to reflect differences in policy and approach.
They recommended a pause and, in some cases, rethink of past and ongoing reforms in areas including placing greater emphasis on specific knowledge in the new Curriculum for Wales, and delaying reforms to GCSEs to give proper time to consider their effects on long-term outcomes, teacher workload and inequalities. Tomorrow, a call will therefore be made—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark, you need to ask your question now, please.

Mark Isherwood AC: —will therefore be made for the Welsh Government to commission an independent review into its current educational reforms. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I just say, in response to that question, my advice would be, actually, to you, that you should direct this question to the Cabinet Secretary for education?

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, thank you, but I trust, given your role as Counsel General providing advice to Welsh Government, relevant Ministers would come to you for advice accordingly. And your priority, as I said, on such important matters, should be public concern and not otherwise.
So, let me try another. North Wales's Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is facing calls to be the subject of a public inquiry after 28 prevention of future deaths reports were recorded over a 16-month period, more than the combined number handed to the other six Welsh health boards. A special ITV Wales report reveals the scale of coroners' concerns about the care people receive from this health board before their deaths, with a bereaved husband warning the recorded number of prevention of future deaths reports could be the tip of the iceberg. As you're aware, a prevention of future deaths report can be issued by a coroner if they have concerns about the circumstances in which someone died, and if it appears there is a risk of deaths occurring. A public inquiry would build confidence back into the system and help make improvements to long-standing issues. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give, as the Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Mick Antoniw AC: Of course, the coroner's service is a reserved service; it's something I believe should be devolved. But all the other areas that you have actually raised should be directed to the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, again, I'm very concerned, as Counsel General, you won't share the advice that you will inevitably have given or be asked to give to Welsh Government Ministers on these matters.
So, I'll have one final go. At the last meeting of the cross-party autism group, which I chair, several attendees shared their experiences of the health and social care system. Participants shared feelings of being targeted by staff in services, with one participant stating that this has affected their ability to feel safe in Wales. Some attendees felt that they had been intentionally parent-blamed and noted this seemed to be aimed at mothers in particular. Some also described how damaging this has been and how it has put the custody of their children at risk. One described their experience with services as one of hostility and prejudices. Participants raised a lack of training and understanding from staff in autism services, and resistance to adopting an autism diagnosis, and many agree there's a lack of accountability regarding the issues raised.
A local authority that several participants identified as of issue was Flintshire County Council, stating that they would like to see an independent public inquiry into the standards of practice in Flintshire. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government Ministers, as Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this, which presumably you would be asked to provide?

Mick Antoniw AC: I'll just give you the same advice I've given before, that the issues you raise are not unimportant issues, but they should be raised with the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: I hope, Counsel General, I'm on firmer ground, given that your list of ministerial responsibilities still includes elections policy and the Senedd reform Bill, to say that democratic reform—democratic health, rather—in its broadest sense, is part of your area of responsibility. I was wondering if you see a connection between that and the mental health and well-being of democracies' elected representatives. And I'm particularly prompted to ask you that following a recent article by Isabel Hardman, the journalist at The Spectator, who has talked about the crisis of mental health among MPs in Westminster. Now, there may be particular reasons for that crisis there now, but I think it's important to recognise it's a universal problem. Indeed, when the Apolitical Foundation, which is a global think tank, produced its report on mental health and well-being recently, I think around 10 per cent of those responding were actually Members of this institution. So, do you see the connection between democratic health and the mental health and well-being of politicians in terms of attracting and keeping people in politics, so it can be properly representative? And also healthy people make better decisions and so should we be concerned about this growing crisis in terms of mental health and elected representatives?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for the question. It raises really quite a number of issues, and those are the stress and pressures that there are on people who decide to go into public service—that's effectively what politicians are. We're living in an environment where it is a very, very difficult environment, particularly with regard to social media, having to deal with the consequences of social media, information, misinformation, and all the particular challenges. I suspect the actual stress and pressures and the impact on physical and mental health are probably greater now in public service and in politics than they actually ever have been. So, the point, I think, you're raising, is absolutely right. We want good governance; we want people to come forward into public service; we don't want people to be dissuaded from coming into public service because of the fear of either the way in which social media might be used to attack them, or indeed to attack members of their family, and also the impact that it might have on people's health. I think we've already seen, haven't we, a number of politicians from different political parties who have already said that they are not going to continue in public service for those very reasons, and sometimes it's the reason because of the impact directly on them, but quite often it's the impact on the people who are around them and on their families, who quite often, through social media, are seen as fair game.
I think there is an issue in terms of well-being. I think it is up to Parliaments, and indeed here to the Senedd, to actually be aware of that. I know this is something that obviously is being considered, and, as someone on the Commission, that's obviously something that is being raised. But I do think it is part and parcel of the picture of something I've talked about, which is democratic health, and I suppose you're right: it's not just about getting people to participate within the system; it's also about enabling people who want to participate within it or want to contribute in some way or other. So, there is a joinder to that. I hope that begins to contribute something towards what is an important issue that you have raised.

Adam Price AC: Given the—[Inaudible.]—nature of this increasingly important issue, as you say, at a time of rising abuse and threats in politics, which creates an even more challenging environment, I was wondering if you would possibly raise it at the next meeting of the Interministerial Group for Elections and Registration. I notice that, actually, democratic health is on the agenda of the next meeting, as was resilience. I was heartened at that until I read it was the resilience of print suppliers of election materials, but maybe you could raise resilience in a different sense, which is of people who are at the heart of democracy after all, and maybe suggest some ideas. I think, here, we've got a good story in the sense that our HR department—one of the issues raised by Isabel Hardman—is actually as big as Westminster's, which is a much bigger institution. But some of the other ideas that have been suggested in terms of mandatory training, not just induction training, but every year, for every politician, could that be part of the agenda of our new national school of government, not just training civil servants, Counsel General, but also current and future elected leaders as well? Alongside a code of conduct, why don't we have a job description, so that we don't just have 'don'ts', we also have some positive 'dos', and we don't just have committees of standards of conduct, but committees of positive workplace cultures as well in our parliamentary institutions?

Mick Antoniw AC: I think those are all valid points, and I'm sure you'll be making those points to the Commission during the coming year. I think what you're really reflecting upon is that the state of our democratic health is multifactorial, it has so many aspects to it, from civic society to also those who are in politics, who are in public service, and their well-being, because that well-being also relates to their capacity to actually deliver that public service as well as possible. I think it is one of the factors why we need to see this Senedd reformed and increased in size, because of those very pressures and demands that are there, to ensure people can do their job properly and also be satisfied that they have the resource and the time available to be able to do the best job possible, which is what most people want to do. As I say, I look forward to you contributing what I think are important parts of debate that have often not been raised, but I think what is important is that these are things that are very much within the ownership of the Senedd. I think one area that goes on top of that is, probably, often, the lack of understanding in civic society of those particular roles, that there's an educational role and an engagement role as well that is equally important.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 3 [OQ60960] has been withdrawn. So, we'll move on to question 4, James Evans.

UK Government Legislating in Devolved Policy Areas

James Evans AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government's position on using the UK Government to legislate in devolved policy areas? OQ60941

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Legislation that can be made in Wales should be made in Wales. Legislation made by the UK Parliament or the UK Government must respect devolution.

James Evans AS: Thank you very much for your answer, Counsel General. When I sat on the legislation and constitution and justice committee—I forget the name; I’ve been off it for a bit long now—we were getting concerned about, actually, how much the Welsh Government was using the UK Government to legislate in devolved areas. It’s a very serious concern because I want to see Welsh law made by Welsh policy makers here in the Senedd, and not made by people up the M4 who don’t really understand the needs of Wales. It doesn’t give us here the opportunity to scrutinise that law and make sure it’s futureproofed for us here.
One concern that we did have is about the capacity within the Welsh Government. So, can you confirm today, Counsel General, whether the Welsh Government does have the appropriate legislative and legal capacity within the Welsh Government so that we can make sure that law is made in Wales, for Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for the question, and it’s obviously one I’ve been presented with many times by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. So, part of my answer remains the same, and that is this: the principles that I outlined in the beginning, in my first response to your question, remain. But, of course, there are many factors that begin to take us away from that.
The first of them is, of course, that we don’t have any control over the UK Government’s legislative programme. The Government introduces many Bills; at one stage, I think we had 32 UK Government Bills that were in process. Now, where those Bills overlap into devolved areas, we have no option but to engage in the legislative consent process; that’s what our Standing Orders require us to do. So, those are not choices that we’ve made for the UK Government to legislate on our behalf. Where we engage with those legislative consent processes, what we do presses very, very strongly the Sewel convention. I can tell you that engagement on the Sewel convention has been extremely difficult, because there have been, in the last couple of years, increasing numbers of breaches, so that where what should be the case is that, on an area that would affect devolved responsibilities, consent should be required, the UK Government regularly now presses ahead and says, 'No, we will consult.' Consulting has absolutely no judicial or legal status whatsoever, and in those circumstances it is a breach.
When we talk about the Victims and Prisoners Bill as one example—and we have a legislative consent memorandum coming on 30 April—that is a very classic example where engagement has taken place, it has been positive on areas, for example, with public advocates and their work in respect of devolved areas, and we were anticipating amendments that would require consent. Suddenly, there’s been a turnabout now to impose or to push through Westminster the issue of consultation only. Now, that is a breach of Sewel. There is no logic to it, and it’s difficult to understand where that sudden intervention has come from that has suddenly changed the tone and nature of those particular negotiations. But that is becoming a very common trend.
Can I say that there are other areas, though, of course, where UK Government legislation is raising issues that we would not have the capacity to legislate on without disrupting our own legislative programme and the planning of that? And, of course, you realise the planning is not just resource in terms of the drafting and preparation of legislation; it’s also managing the flow of legislation and the time the committees have to actually deal with it. I’ll give you one example, which is the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I think that’s a good example of an opportunity where we’ve engaged with the UK Government, where, in fact, there’s been four-nation engagement on it, and I think there are a number of other examples where that's happened as well.
So, it is very rare that we would go to UK Government to legislate on our behalf. Where it has happened, it has normally been in circumstances where UK Government is legislating in an area, and we've identified that it's not part of our legislative programme at the moment, but there would be benefits to the people of Wales were something to be extended to Wales. But that actually is very rare. The majority of issues that go beyond our own legislative programme, where we are specifically legislating, normally arises out of the engagement with UK Government over its own legislative programme. I have to say that engagement is very, very difficult; in some areas it has improved, but there is still a fundamental weakness in the application of the Sewel convention.

The Victims and Prisoners Bill

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. What advice has the Counsel General given Cabinet colleagues regarding the impact of the Victims and Prisoners Bill on Welsh residents? OQ60943

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question. I am working with Cabinet colleagues on the impacts of the Bill on their portfolios. We are engaging with the UK Government on several elements of the Bill. The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice will lead a legislative consent motion—the one I've just referred to, I'm afraid—in the debate on the Bill on 30 April.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his response. Counsel General, I've raised a number of times the concerns I have for this Bill, in that it does not go anywhere near far enough to meet the asks of the Hillsborough Law Now campaign. This Bill is seriously lacking in key areas, such as a duty of candour. Victims who cannot be assured of getting the full truth at the first time of asking are unlikely to attain the justice they deserve. What are the Welsh Government's options to try and encourage the UK Government for a rethink of this Bill?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I firstly thank you for continuing to raise this issue and the issue of the Hillsborough law? As you know, I met with some of the Hillsborough campaigners some while back, and have also been engaged with them. It is certainly the case that the—. Well, to start with, the Bill has certain other elements to it that are things that I think we as a Government would support, in respect of, for example, contaminated blood and contaminated blood compensation, and the issue that has been there for quite some time. So, those are things that I think are positive within the Bill.
But the point you specifically raise is: does this Bill actually address the issues that were raised by the Hillsborough campaigners? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't. What it does do is have a very weak-hearted, I think, attempt at creating public advocates, the purpose of which is extremely unclear at the moment. And this of course is the area where I met with the UK Government Minister last week—myself and another Cabinet Secretary met—really just to push the point that they respect the public advocates in guidance, that where that related specifically to the carrying out of devolved functions, there should be a requirement to consent. That's what Sewel says, and that is what we expected to be the case. The Bill is obviously at Report Stage in the House of Lords at the moment, so it was very, very disappointing that, at very short notice, we were told that the UK Government was going to lay an amendment that only required it to consult. And it's for that reason that this matter will be coming on 30 April as a matter of legislative consent.
The one area, of course, that you've raised consistently is the issue of a public duty of candour, and it seems to me that that is absolutely fundamental. It is not in the Bill. A duty of candour is basically an obligation on public servants to tell the truth. It isn't a legal obligation on them to do so and to come forward proactively with that. And that is one of the fundamental demands in respect of a so-called Hillsborough law. What I am very pleased to say is that, of course, Sir Keir Starmer has already indicated that an incoming Labour Government will introduce a full Hillsborough law, it will introduce public advocates. I am certain that it will also respect the devolution settlement, but it also will establish that duty of candour, which I think is fundamental.
There is of course a very much easier way to press on, and that would be, basically, to open the doors of legal aid to those who become victims. That would have been the most simple and straightforward way of actually doing this, and it seems to me that it's a step too far. But the lack of a duty of candour is something that applies in any event, even with the opening doors of legal aid, were that to happen. So, it doesn't go anywhere near what I think we were expecting and, I'm afraid, it is a very half-hearted attempt at responding to those demands that were made.

The Exemption of the Monarch

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding the exemption of the monarch from the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023? OQ60958

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you very much for the question. The immunity of the monarch from prosecution is a long-established principle. In accordance with that principle and convention, during the consent process on the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, as it was at the time, assurance was provided that the convention would be taken into account when making regulations once the Bill was enacted.

Delyth Jewell AC: I find it very troubling that the King, it seems, can ignore our laws in Wales. Are we saying that if a piece of land belongs to the sovereign it doesn't need to be managed sustainably? Or are we conceding that, by virtue of the monarch's nature, he can only own land sustainably? Or is it neither, and simply the fact that our laws and customs come with a duty of homage? In September 1267, the Treaty of Montgomery between Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and King Henry III of England provided that the prince and his successors would be bound to give fealty, homage and service to the English King and his heirs. Are the terms of that treaty still haunting us today? Are our Senedd's powers forever subject to our being subjects of a king?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, listen, thank you for that response. I have to say that the Treaty of Montgomery is not something I've read recently, although I am aware of it. Certainly, this issue is a constitutional issue. There are strong and varying views on this. Just as we seek to comply ourselves with conventions and seek compliance, for example, with the Sewel convention, so we have also complied with the other conventions that exist in respect of legislation, but there is clearly a debate that is taking place on this particular issue.
There is a constitutional anachronism that is there. But can I just say this in respect of the Bill? In response to the palace's request, the Welsh Government did give a written assurance on the point of this convention to the King's advisers, and we said this:
'we confirm that when making regulations under Part III of the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023 the Welsh ministers will keep in mind the exclusion by convention of the Crown in respect of criminal enforcement and powers of entry.'
The assurance was to take account of the convention when making regulations. It did not commit the Welsh Ministers to any specific course of action when making regulations and, of course, any regulations that are brought forward under that will come forward to this Senedd, and if there are concerns at that stage, those are matters for this Parliament.

Developers of Major Projects

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 7. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about ensuring that developers of major projects fulfil their contractual obligations? OQ60951

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Eleven major house builders have signed the Welsh Government’s developers contract. The contracts commit these developers to undertake works to rectify fire safety issues in buildings that they've developed over the past 30 years. I’m aware that the Cabinet Secretary is committed to ensuring that developers fulfil their contractual obligations.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that answer. I'm going on a slightly different aspect, and you might not be surprised to hear that this question is framed within the lens of Ffos-y-Fran opencast mine in Merthyr, in my region. It's outrageous that the mine owner is attempting to walk away from their legally binding obligations to restore the land and make it a haven for flora and fauna once again. After taking tens of millions of pounds-worth of coal from the site, an ecological water-filled disaster is developing, which is now causing real concern for long-suffering local residents.
Now, you may not be able to talk about the detail of this case, for legal reasons, but I want you to talk about the general principle of a company cutting and running after making their money. What message does this send out to other developers if there is no legal recourse taken against irresponsible developers? Is there now a perception that authorities and watchdogs in Wales are toothless? This is important, particularly in my region, since there are plans for anothercoal tip safety scheme on the site of the former Bedwas colliery. An escrow account is part of the plans to ensure that remediation work takes place once the scheme has run its course—a well-walked path. What legal advice are you giving to counter the perception that Wales is a soft touch for developers?

Mick Antoniw AC: I don't give legal advice specifically on that last point. It is obviously important that all contractual arrangements that are entered into by public bodies are resilient. I know, for example, that the contract in respect of reclamation with Tower colliery, where there was an escrow account as well, is one that does appear to have worked and been fulfilled. In terms of the broader direction of the question that you're raising with me, I think that is one that should be raised again with the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 8 [OQ60961] has been withdrawn. So, finally, question 9, James Evans.

Legal Advice on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill

James Evans AS: 9. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill? OQ60936

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The Bill has been through all the usual processes that all Government legislation introduced into the Senedd goes through. The Member in charge has set out the Government’s position in relation to the Bill in her oral statement and during her evidence to the Reform Bill Committee.

James Evans AS: Counsel General, the advice that's been provided to the Welsh Government is that this does sit within the legal competence of the Senedd. Unfortunately, the Llywydd doesn't agree with that position. Evidence to the reform committee doesn't agree that it sits within the legal competence of the Senedd. The UK Government doesn't agree that this legislation sits within the legal competence of this Senedd and nor do independent legal advisers in this area of law around the country agree that this sits within the legal competence of the Senedd. So, I'd be very interested to know how you've come to that position and the Welsh Government lawyers have come to that position to say that it is within competence, when the vast majority of legal professionals who study in this area of law disagree with the Welsh Government's position. I want to separate apart whether I agree with the policy or not. But I think we need to make sure that, when we are putting law forward in Wales, it actually does sit within competence, and the Welsh Government doesn't waste money fighting this in the Supreme Court when it knows that it shouldn't have put the Bill forward in the first place, if it doesn't sit within the legal competence of this Senedd.

Mick Antoniw AC: The issue of competence is obviously a fundamental part of our legislative process. It is certainly the case that this is one where there are different legal opinions in terms of competence. Competence is often an extremely complex and grey area. This legislation, of course, is being taken through by the Trefnydd. So, it's not a Bill that's within my portfolio of responsibilities. The reason I'd be cautious on this at the moment is for this reason: those issues have been recognised, the matter has been taken back to the Senedd and is currently being considered by an appropriate committee. That committee, I know, is considering the issue of competence and has taken evidence on that. They will come to an opinion and they will report back to this Senedd at that particular stage. At that stage, the Senedd will take a decision on whether it is appropriate matter to proceed. In terms of my role as Counsel General, as law officer, I act independently of Government, but only once legislation has been passed and has been concluded. It's the same position with regard to the Attorney-General. I have the authority, as does the Attorney-General, to refer a matter to the Supreme Court if there is a constitutional issue with it. Of course, competence can be one of those. So, it's not really appropriate for me to make any further comment on this other than what I've said—other than that, of course, depending upon how the legislation proceeds, at a certain stage I will be required to exercise my role as law officer.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Counsel General.

4. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care: Creating a smoke-free generation and tackling youth vaping

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on creating a smoke-free generation and tackling youth vaping. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Thank youfor this opportunity to update Members about the important work we're carrying out to create a smoke-free Wales and to tackle youth vaping. Despite all our success in reducing smoking rates, it remains the leading cause of avoidable harm and death here in Wales. Smoking harms nearly every organ of the body and, uniquely, it harms not just the smoker but the people around them. We all know the impacts that smoking has on individuals, on society and on our health service. It is not overdramatisation to say that these are devastating.
For individuals, tobacco significantly increases the risk of cancer, respiratory diseases, and dementia. For our society, smoking drives health inequalities and costs the economy billions each year. The former Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being launched our smoke-free Wales strategy two years ago and with it our ambitious target to reduce smoking prevalence to 5 per cent by 2030. We are working towards that ambition, supporting people to stop smoking at all stages in their lives.
The First Minister has put a renewed focus on the first 1,000 days of a child’s life to ensure every child gets the best start in life. Smoking is a significant risk factor for poor pregnancy-associated health outcomes. We have been working to increase support to smokers to quit for good during pregnancy, and I have set clear objectives for health boards to provide carbon monoxide monitoring during antenatal appointments to help women achieve that goal. Our free national smoking cessation service, Help Me Quit, continues to support thousands of people every year, and we are rolling out our in-hospital smoking cessation programme so that NHS staff can support our in-patients to quit.
Illegal tobacco and vaping products pose an increasing and complex challenge, so we are working closely with trading standards to support the enforcement and seizure of illegal and potentially dangerous products. We have also supported secondary schools across Wales by providing evidence-based information for teachers and school staff about how to tackle vaping and resources to help learners understand the impact of vapes on their health and well-being.
In addition to the work in Wales, we are also working closely with partners across the UK on actions to tackle youth vaping and to create a smoke-free generation. The UK Government’s Tobacco and Vapes Bill was introduced in the UK Parliament on 20 March and had its second reading last week. The legislation has the potential to be one of the most significant public health interventions in a generation and the biggest step forward in the battle against tobacco since we banned smoking in enclosed public spaces in 2007.
With our consent and support, along with that of colleagues in Scotland and Northern Ireland, the main measures in the Bill—making it illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone who turns 15 in 2024 or younger and reducing the appeal and availability of vaping products—will apply throughout the UK. These provisions, of course, have an impact on devolved areas of competence. I will therefore be laying a legislative consent motion in early May. I am committed to ensuring that Members are able to fully consider the detail of the Bill and its impact here in Wales. I look forward to hearing Members' views in due course.

Eluned Morgan AC: When asked, most smokers will tell you that they wish that they had never started smoking, and many say that they find it really hard to quit. A large number will have started smoking when they were young—more than four in five people before the age of 20. And that’s why this Bill has the power to make a real difference, putting cigarettes and tobacco products out of the reach of young people. Anyone born after 1 January 2009 will never be able to be legally sold a cigarette or any other form of tobacco, and this will lead, over time, to a smoke-free generation.
I have heard many arguments recently that smoking should be a choice. Whilst the Bill will not criminalise anyone for smoking, I firmly agree with the chief medical officer and the many other health leaders that smoking is an addiction. It traps smokers into a habit that ultimately kills up to two thirds of its long-term users. Once hooked, smoking is no longer a choice, it's a dependency. This Bill is a unique opportunity to take decisive action to free and safeguard a generation of young people and children in Wales and the UK from addiction. It also gives us more powers to tackle youth vaping. Our message on vaping has been and remains very clear: if you don't smoke, don't vape.
These products should never be in the hands of our children and young people. This is why the increase in vaping among young people is extremely worrying, given the unknown long-term health impacts, the highly addictive nature of nicotine, and the potentially harmful ingredients in some illegal vapes. The way that vaping products are regularly promoted, and the endless flavours and bright packaging, appeals to children, like the most tempting sweet stall. The Bill will introduce regulation-making powers to restrict these elements for both nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products.
Of course, for these changes to have an impact, we will need to ensure that they are properly implemented and enforced, particularly to deal with the illegal tobacco and vape markets. Therefore, the Bill strengthens the enforcement system by introducing on-the-spot fines for underage sales of tobacco and vaping products in England and Wales, which means that trading standards officers can take swifter action. Alongside our ambitious smoke-free Wales strategy, this Bill is a step forward in public health, and it has the potential to prevent disease, disability and deaths. I will keep Members updated as we move ahead with this work, which is vital to supporting a healthier nation for us all. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. I am speaking on this statement today in my official capacity as shadow Minister for mental health and early years, rather than a personal capacity. The mental health and early years portfolio covers addiction.
Often, legislators can be quite lethargic when reacting to a sudden-onset problem, and I would put youth vaping within that category. It's important that we act quickly as this has been a growing problem for some years, but I'm pleased to see the Tobacco and Vapes Bill at Committee Stage in Westminster, so it's important that we do not get left behind in Wales. Without similar legislation in Wales, there is a concern that there could be an increase in young people from England crossing the border into Wales to purchase cigarettes or disposable vapes.
Speaking on the importance of creating a smoke-free generation, I will touch on some of those statistics now. Over 80 per cent of smokers started before they turned 30, many as children, and it is estimated that over 200,000 children a year start smoking in the UK, with some association between smoking and other substance abuse. We already know how bad smoking is for your health. It increases the risk of stillbirths, asthma in children, dementia, strokes, heart failure, and, of course, cancer.
We are already winning the battle on smoking, but the vaping regulation included in the Bill is imperative. Companies are marketing the products in an enticing way to appeal to under-18s with vibrant colours and exotic flavours. These disposable vapes have largely replaced smoking in schools, with one in five young people from years 7 and 8 having tried vaping according to the School Health Research Network, and 5 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales vaping at least once a week. I must stress that e-cigarettes are a legitimate and successful avenue for smoking cessation, but marketing them towards children is wrong, and has resulted in large-scale uptake amongst children. This is now our problem to solve.
The Tobacco and Vapes Bill is a historic and ambitious move by the Prime Minister to solve this long-term problem and ensure our young people never take up smoking. It is, however, an adult's right to smoke if they so choose, as it is a person's right to eat junk food or engage in any other dangerous endeavour, and I am not proneto paternalistic policies when it comes to what adults do with their own bodies. However, when it comes to predatory marketing of unhealthy products aimed at children, state action is required. There needs to be greater enforcement of the current laws to prevent young people from smoking, but this also begins in schools where teachers are reporting issues of children vaping with increasing frequency. Schools need to be proactive in clamping down on the use of these devices, alongside the legislative action, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary for Education will also address this matter too.
The UK Labour Party is supporting this Bill, and I am pleased that the Welsh Labour Government and Welsh Labour in general have taken the same position. We are pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for health has announced this legislative consent motion to achieve continuity with England and other devolved administrations in implementing the Tobacco and Vapes Bill 2024. It is the view of the Welsh Conservatives that this is the correct decision to ensure the health of the next generation. Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Gareth, and can I congratulate you on retaining your role? I actually think that poor old Rishi Sunak is not going to have a heck of a lot to show in terms of his legacy, but this is something that I think that, I hope, will be a part of his legacy. It is practically the only worthwhile thing he has done as a Prime Minister, because the fact is that tobacco kills about 8 million people across the world annually. In Wales that's about 5,600 deaths a year, at a cost of £302 million. So, this is not cost free, and it's not cost free, obviously, to the individuals, but it's not cost free to us as a society either.
One of the things I am most concerned about at the moment in relation to health is our cancer rates. I am very, very worried about what's happening. But one of the things I'm most worried about is the disparities in terms of the outcomes for people who have cancer. There is a direct link, as I set out in my statement, between those areas that are more deprived and those that are least deprived in terms of cancer rates. So, about 22 per cent of people in our most deprived areas smoke, and about 8 per cent in our least deprived areas, and that is going to have an impact. Targeting those areas is going to be crucial.
On vapes, I agree with you. I think state action is required. It is quite frightening in terms of the numbers of young people who've taken up vaping, and certainly the new law will help. I can assure you that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, who obviously led on this issue before, I know, is going to deal with this very seriously in relation to education as well. Obviously, the Labour Party is very supportive of this. It's a shame that not more Tory Members supported it when it went through the House of Commons.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: As I have mentioned many times, the preventative agenda is pivotal to the long-term future of the NHS in Wales, and there are few more pressing issues for this agenda to address than smoking, which continues to impose intolerably high social and economic costs. Smoking kills 5,600 people a year here in Wales, while tobacco-related health issues create a bill for the Welsh NHS in excess of £300 million a year. As is illustrated by ASH Cymru's latest survey, smoking habits also run along existing class lines, thus entrenching health inequalities in our society. While 8 per cent of those living in the highest social grades are smokers, 17 per cent of those living in the lowest social grade are smokers. Smoking habits are also far more prevalent amongst individuals living in social housing, compared to home owners. The harmful impact of second-hand smoke is also well documented, and with around 13 per cent of non-smoking Welsh adults living in households with at least one smoker, the risk posed by tobacco use clearly extends well beyond that faced by the smokers themselves.
Such figures comprehensively demolish the specious, libertarian counter-argument that measures to curb smoking are somehow an assault on personal freedoms. Upholding personal freedoms also entails guaranteeing that no-one should have to develop adverse health conditions as a result of the actions of others, and ensuring that future generations are not burdened with the enormous societal cost that smoking incurs. Moreover, when she isn't railing against a deep state—which now apparently also includes the famous lettuce that outlived her premiership—Liz Truss has become the standard-bearer for the opposition to the smoke-free initiative, which tells you everything you need to know about its credibility. If she's opposed, then it must be a good idea.
I therefore welcome today's statement and the consensus across the nations of the UK on this issue. It's clear, as is laid out in the ASH Cymru survey, there is widespread appetite amongst non-smokers and smokers alike for boldness on this issue. Fifty per cent of respondents have said that the Welsh Government isn't doing enough at present on tobacco control, which includes 20 per cent of current smokers. So, if we are to truly realise the ambition of creating a smoke-free Wales by 2030, we must be prepared to seize the initiative without delay.
The legislative framework provided by the UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill does undoubtedly represent a step in the right direction on paper, but in practice it can only be effective if it is accompanied by robust and fully funded enforcement. So, I'd be grateful, therefore, if the Minister could explain what assurances the Welsh Government has received from the UK Government on the relevant resourcing implications for Welsh police forces. How confident is the Minister that they will receive additional funding for enforcing this legislation, as opposed to being asked to do more with the same insufficient pot of money?
And while the statement primarily relates to measures being undertaken under the umbrella of pan-UK legislation, it's also important that devolved levers at the disposal of the Welsh Government are not overlooked either. The issue of youth vaping is a growing concern amongst the general public, as the pupils of Ysgol Glan y Môr in Pwllheli made clear to me recently, especially given the large unregulated state of the industry. The powers to create a retail register with specific licensing standards for vaping vendors are contained within the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, but they have, so far, never been used. So, could the Minister explain this oversight on the part of the Welsh Government, and when can we expect to see the implementation of a vaping retail register in Wales? Finally, could the Minister provide an update on the likely time frames for the introduction of a legislative ban on disposable vapes in Wales, which continue to inflict significant environmental costs? Diolch yn fawr.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Well, I think, first of all, we should actually celebrate a little bit of success in this area. The fact is that the rates of smoking have come down not insignificantly over the past 10 years. So, in 2010 23 per cent of the Welsh population smoked. Today that figure is 13 per cent. So, it's not a bad improvement, but we still have a long way to go, and we do have this ambition to get to 5 per cent by 2030. So, that, apparently, would make us a smoke-free Wales. I haven't quite worked out how 5 per cent makes you smoke free, but there you are, that's what they say is possible—there we go.
What I can tell you is that we have a very clear delivery plan, so I think it's unfair to say that Welsh Government is not doing enough in this area. We've definitely done quite a lot of work on the smoke-free environment, there is continuous improvement and support in terms of innovation, we are tackling and targeting priority groups, we're very much tackling the illegal trade in tobacco and we're working across the UK. And, of course, we do have measures to support people in their efforts to stop smoking.
Just in terms of enforcement—you asked about that—of course, it's trading standards that has to regulate in this area, and, you're quite right, everybody is stretched at the moment. So, of course, we do need to make sure that, when we introduce new laws, we do have the capacity to make sure that the money is there. Youth vaping: vapes, they have to be registered with the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, but, you're quite right, at the moment there is no requirement to have any kind of licensing in relation to retail vaping. And I'm not averse to looking at that, but my understanding is that we may need some additional primary powers, and, obviously, our legislative programme is quite burdened at the moment. But just as a principle, I very much would be willing to look at whether that is something that we could look at as a Government.

Jack Sargeant AC: Cabinet Secretary, the Petitions Committee currently has two live petitions under consideration. One of them is a petition calling for a ban on the sale of single-use vapes, with a total of 455 signatures, and I’m pleased the Cabinet Secretary for climate change just yesterday made an announcement on progress with a date of—I think it was April 2025. And that would mean,when a ban would come into force, another petition achieving real success here in terms of policy change.
The second petition, Cabinet Secretary, received over 9,000 signatures in total and it was in reference to what you were referring to, Mabon ap Gwynfor, with regard to the licensing of vaping shops. They want to ensure staff are properly trained; they also want to guarantee customer safety. They have real concerns around the fake vapes and also illegal products being too readily available to many people. I heard what you said in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor, but perhaps the Minister could commit to updating the Chamber again when you’ve had further thoughts on that matter. Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I was very pleased that Huw Irranca-Davies was able to make that announcement, which means that we will be phasing out those single-use vapes, which of course will have a double benefit, not just for the environment, but obviously hopefully in stopping young people from taking up the opportunities, because I think there is definitely a worrying increasing trend in relation to that. About 5 per cent of secondary school-age people between 11 and 16 are regular smokers; 20 per cent of them have tried vapes, and about 14 per cent in year 11 vape weekly. So, these are quite high numbers, I think, and obviously what you don’t want, and I’ve had some very interesting discussions with the children’s commissioner last week, who has also focused on this issue, and she has done some very interesting research, just talking to some children about their concerns—. And one of the things that she was saying is that, actually, they are concerned about the increasing number, and the number of children who can’t get through a whole lesson now because they need to have a vape, so that is really, really concerning. So, this is getting serious, and I think this comes at the right time.
Just to let you know also that Public Health Wales did some research on this, and they had and incident response group. They published a paper on 18 April, so just last week, on this particular issue, and one of the things that they mentioned in their response was also whether we need to be considering the licensing of vape shops. So, it’s definitely not off the agenda; the question is if you can let me do a little bit more research about if it might be possible through secondary legislation—obviously more difficult if it’s primary—but as a principle, I certainly wouldn’t object to looking further into that.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. I’m pleased that the former education Minister is here too, because certainly one of the messages I’m hearing from schools, but also from children and young people, is how much of a problem this is. It also means that schools, in trying to deal with this, are having to lock toilets, which means, then, in terms of periods and so on, that there is a lack of access to toilets, which is also huge problem. I was at a primary school recently, and this was the main issue that they wanted to discuss with me, and they were asking, ‘Please will you do something about this?’, saying that they could buy on TikTok Shop, so it’s not just in traditional shops—TikTok Shop is so easy for them—that the flavours are targeted at them, such as Slush Puppy, for example, and that it’s something that they really want to see action from us on as politicians. So, I promised that, when I had an opportunity to ask a question, I would raise these concerns, because the access to these products, and the lack of regulation, and the kinds of vapes—. Certainly there is a role for vaping in terms of helping people quit smoking, but the problems caused by this in terms of children and young people are significant, and I think that schools do need support too.
So, can I ask you: will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education too to ensure that there is more support for schools in how to deal with this, and that we look at an awareness raising campaign on the concerns that our children and young people have and that we support them in stopping their fellow pupils from vaping?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and I'm certainly willing to work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on how we can provide additional support to schools to deal with this issue. It's extraordinary that children in primary schools are talking about this matter, and that's a cause of great concern, of course. One of the things that this new legislation will do is to place less of a focus on the colour and flavour, and that targeting, available to children and hitherto targeted at children. So that will be an outcome of this new legislation. Another thing that's worth saying, perhaps, is that the UK Chancellor has placed a duty on vapes, whichwill be introduced in autumn 2026, so the cost of vapes will go up and, hopefully, that will also prevent children from buying vapes in future.

John Griffiths AC: I'd like to congratulate Welsh Government on its work for a smoke-free Wales and a smoke-free generation, and also congratulate UK Government for the bold steps it's taken to help create that smoke-free generation. Cabinet Secretary, as far as registration is concerned, it was, actually, discussed at the last meeting of the cross-party group on smoking and health, where it was felt that it might well be possible to do under the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which I guess is where the secondary legislation you mentioned as a possibility might feature. It was emphasised how important it is to have that registration, that system to have some control over retailers of tobacco, vape and nicotine, because, obviously, we have to be in a position where we can do much more to prevent the illegal sale of vapes, for example. We've heard about how damaging they are to our young people, and I'd just like to add one thing to that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you agree that one of the very worrying aspects is research carried by scientists in Liverpool where they found that 29 per cent of illegal vapes contained lead, a metal that the World Health Organization warn high levels of exposure to can affect the brain development of our young people? It just gets worse and worse, doesn't it, as far as vaping and young people are concerned.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, and I wasn't aware of that particular research, so that is very concerning. Obviously, vapes are regulated by the MHRA, and people should not be—. Certainly, if they're going to vape,then make surethat it's been licensed by the MHRA. But that is very, very concerning. I know you've been a long-term champion in this area, and, as I say, I've made a commitment to look at whether it might be possible to introduce some kind of licensing under the current laws that we have. But I wouldn't discount, in the future, obviously—it would be difficult during this Senedd term—looking at whether, if that's not possible, we perhaps might consider primary legislation in this area.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. I welcome your continued work to tackle the well-documented scourge of smoking and your work to address the newly developing health and societal issues associated with vaping. I visitedmy optician last week and was interested to see the work that was being done there to signpost people to smoking cessation services. I understand that this signposting forms part of the optometry contract, so, Cabinet Secretary, could you tell us more about this working across all areas of the Welsh NHS to help support people to quit smoking and how you monitor and track the performance of these initiatives? Secondly, I welcome your approach to tackling vaping amongst those who have never smoked, particularly amongst young people. It's clear that this requires a multifaceted approach that straddles both devolved and non-devolved areas. So, in your opinion, Cabinet Secretary, and noting the work of UK Government in this area to date, do you think this mix of devolved and non-devolved responsibilities will make it more difficult for you to take the actions you want, or do you see the UK Government's stance as complementing and perhaps even supporting the work of Welsh Government in this area?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Vikki Howells. I'm not a nationalist. I think what we've got to do is to protect our population, and if it means that we can piggyback on what's happening in Westminster for something that will be of benefit to the Welsh public, then I for one am not averse to that at all. So, I'm very pleased that we have been able to work together on this across the whole of the UK. So, I'm very pleased. And there may be other areas, particularly, perhaps, when we get a Labour Government, where we'll be doing a lot more of that.
I'm really pleased to see that the contract in relation to optometrists is working. This is part of our efforts to see that every contact counts, and why wouldn't we take the opportunity, when any public health person has that contact with the public, to talk about other things apart from what they've come in for? And so I'm really, really pleased to hear that it's happening on the ground, that it is making a difference and that new optometry contract is functioning well. So, diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

5. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language: Our economic future

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language, our economic future. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The foundation of our economic mission is an economy that delivers a just transition to a sustainable future, with fair work at its heart. This includes providing good opportunities for young people, investing in the skills and innovation that we need to flourish in the future and working with our regional partners and others.
As we look to the years ahead, we must seek to grow our economy truly sustainably, creating more opportunities for well-paid work and greater levels of prosperity. This will enable us to increase living standards, improve health outcomes, respond to the climate emergency, tackle poverty and address inequalities—objectives that are at the heart of our broader goals as a Government. To enable us to be a more compassionate country, we must be a more prosperous country.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: We want our entrepreneurs, businesses and our workforce to thrive in all regions of Wales. To accomplish this, I want us to set ourselves the bold ambition to make Wales the best place to start, invest in and grow a business in the United Kingdom, and to communicate that clearly both within and outside Wales.
My first priority is to increase our productivity and economic dynamism, building on our interventions in skills, innovation, entrepreneurship and export support and the work of the development bank, ensuring that our business support provision is the most effective. Aligning the work of universities, investors, entrepreneurs, existing businesses and the Government around our key economic priorities will support this. And we must do this in the context of our clear commitment to fair work and to social partnership with unions and employers, if we are to deliver on our broader social goals. The levers to increase productivity are not all in the hands of the Welsh Government, but those that are will be used purposefully.
My second priority is to attract and encourage business investment in Wales, both in established businesses based in Wales and from new investors. This will create good new jobs and stimulate the growth of Welsh enterprises of all sizes, supply chains and value chains. Realistically, this cannot simply be about direct support from public funds, important though that can be. It will require a collaborative effort within and between all layers of government and a focused approach to sectors and priorities that align with our existing assets.
My third priority is to redesign our employability and skills support, helping our workforce and those seeking work, in the context of changing realities and our commitment to fair work. Skills are critical to improving productivity and crucial to delivering on the economic opportunities from our transition to a net zero Wales. Implementing our net zero skills plan will help deliver a just transition, and clearly defining our national skills needs across the economy for the future will ensure that we are best placed to realise the opportunities that will come. This includes aligning economic priorities, our skills and apprenticeship provision and our vocational education offer seamlessly. We face considerable labour market challenges. Economic activity is a persistent issue for us in Wales. The demand for employment and skills programmes remains high and continuing, so we must make sure that we are able to respond.
We must lead the current industrial revolution in our energy system to bring a just transition to a low-carbon energy system, and to drive a circular economy to focus upon economic and environmental opportunities. Bringing the economy and the energy portfolios together will facilitate our work to do this, putting our green energy future at the heart of our economic policy.
All the above priorities come together in addressing those opportunities around this energy transition, with new investment in renewables and industrial transformation to secure the low-cost, low-carbon energy that will be essential for our businesses and wider society. The opportunities from floating offshore wind demonstrate the huge prize for Wales, and we will move swiftly and respond to this nimbly as a whole of Welsh Government goal.
Our ongoing financial constraints and the continuing political and economic uncertainty at a UK level and beyond make these aims challenging. The legacy of EU withdrawal, the pandemic and ongoing budgetary constraints have weakened the economy. The slowdown in UK productivity has impacted output, wages and household incomes, and these inequalities were already more acute in Wales before this time. This has resulted in additional costs to business, challenges to export and international trade, and new pressures on the capacity of the Government. This includes the failure of the UK Government's levelling-up policies and its broken promise to replace EU funds. Instead, it has bypassed the Welsh Government and this Senedd and has denied us vital funding to support strategic opportunities for growth.
The most high-profile concern at present, of course, is the potential job losses at Tata, and I will ensure that the Welsh Government will continue to support our workers and unions in doing all that we can to protect jobs and our steel industry in Wales. A UK general election is expected within the next number of months, with the real possibility of a better and fairer economic policy from a new UK Government.
Joint working initiatives, such as free ports, investment zones and city and growth deals, offer a better chance of success than the UK Government circumventing the Welsh Government, and working closely with local government and corporate joint committees is essential to making the most of the economic opportunities ahead. We've been working with the OECD on how we can work more collaboratively in regional development across different levels of government. Looking to the future, we will draw on this work to ensure that we are closely aligning funding initiatives, our national economic priorities and our commitment to regional partnership.

Jeremy Miles AC: Finally, the inclusion of economic policy and the Welsh language within the same ministerial portfolio for the first time will support our economic development work in communities where Welsh is widely spoken. We know that the economic health of those communities is fundamental to the future flourishing of the Welsh language. We are already expanding the Arfor initiative and later this year the report of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities will help shape our future work in relation to the everyday economy, employee and community ownership and broader economic opportunities for those communities.
Delivering truly sustainable economic growth, and the capacity that it brings to contribute to our broader policy agenda, requires a co-ordinated cross-Government approach to translate policy into delivery, and in the weeks ahead I will be working with ministerial colleagues to this end. We will also refresh our approach to stakeholder engagement across the economy portfolio, with new arrangements in place so that we can ensure that we have access to appropriate external advice, and also to constructive challenge.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I welcome the new Cabinet Secretary to his role, although I do imagine that it would have been a different role that he would have chosen if he'd had that opportunity. I'm sure that you will be delighted that I am going to continue to be scrutinising you in your new portfolio.

Samuel Kurtz AS: The Welsh economy is underperforming, and the people of Wales are losing out because of this. There was even recognition of this in your manifesto, which said:
'There is no route to the more compassionate country that we want to be which doesn't pass through the more prosperous country that we need to be.'

Samuel Kurtz AS: And I would agree; we need change—change in the way we approach the economy in Wales, and change in the way that we skill our workforce. If we only look at some of the recent statistics published by the Welsh Government, then we see why we need change. This Government's own figures show a rise in unemployment equating to an increase of close to 3,000 jobless in the three months leading up to February. That's a rate around 60 per cent higher than that of the UK average—a worrying trend, despite unemployment levels remaining low.
What is concerning, however, are the rates of economic inactivity and employment. You rightly point out that economic inactivity is a persistent issue, but after 25 years of Labour, these figures are quite staggering. In Wales, the rate of economic inactivity is 26.2 per cent, up almost 2 per cent in just three months. The Prime Minister has outlined some proposals as to how the UK Government plans to address this problem, so I'd ask what plans you have to lower this high figure, bearing in mind that it is almost 27 per cent higher than the UK average, and rising three times as fast. Surely tackling these issues must be a priority. Economic inactivity hurts everyone: it doesn't generate wealth—wealth that we need to fund our vital public services—and it robs the potential of our young people that could otherwise be contributing to society and their own well-being, because behind each one of these statistics is a person.
One way to surely help our young people is to provide apprenticeships that are valued by employers. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary: where are we with regard to funding providers that offer vocational routes into industry? I spoke only last week to PeoplePlus Cymru, who stress the importance of skills training that is actually relevant to the workforce, ensuring that they are job ready. But when we talk about being job ready when they leave training, then they need an actual job to go to. Your predecessor never got around to having targets for job creation—in fact, there was only ever one job that he wanted to fill. So, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask that you introduce job creation targets going forward, because I believe surely this would be a measure welcomed in this Siambr, and across industries here in Wales?
You mention renewable energy and the opportunities that presents for Wales. The necessity is to ensure that we are training enough young people now to fill the skills gaps that will appear in the future. I agree when you state that skills are critical for our economic opportunity, so has the Welsh Government undertaken any assessment of how many welders, fabricators, engineers, planning officers or any other professions are needed to deliver the range of projects here in Wales? If we don't know how many we need, then how can we ensure that we're training enough to realise these opportunities?
I appreciate the mention of free ports and floating offshore wind in your statement, and I would hope that a positive working relationship can be forged on issues such as these, which straddle the reserved and devolved line. On Tata, I would ask if the Cabinet Secretary can confirm, unlike his predecessor, if any financial support or contribution is being made towards the transition board.
This next point—and it really does pain me to say this, and it should be a sense of shame for this Welsh Government—is that Wales is now last in the UK when it comes to median salary, having fallen behind Northern Ireland only last year. You say that it is the result of a UK slowdown that wages have been impacted, but Welsh workers have long taken home less money than their counterparts anywhere else in the UK. You also say that you want Wales to be the best place to start a business. So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, what plan do you have to attract and deliver higher paying jobs to the Welsh economy and more businesses in general? Here in Wales, we signed the first ever £1 million cheque, yet, today, we currently only have one FTSE 100 company.
So, Cabinet Secretary, will you be sticking to your personal manifesto pledge that we need to be a more prosperous nation? Because the opportunities in Wales, across a range of sectors and industries, genuinely fill me with excitement of what Wales could look like, what Wales's future should look like. Repeating the same mistakes as ministerial predecessors will see Wales continue to have unrealised potential, will see Wales continue to lag behind the rest of the UK, and will see Wales continue to underperform, when, in fact, it should outperform. Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Samuel Kurtz for a very wide range of questions, and welcome him to his new responsibilities. I very much look forward to our discussions across the Chamber, and perhaps outside the Chamber from time to time as well.
The premise of the Member’s questions seemed to be that Wales is an independent country with entire control over all the levers that influence the economy. The pattern that he will have noticed in relation to economic inactivity is one that is replicated right across the UK, as are a number of the other statistics that he referred to. We need to have a Government in Westminster that has the same commitment that we have in Wales to growing our economy sustainably and delivering fair work in all parts of our country.
He talked about economic inactivity. I identified as one of my three priorities in my statement a refresh of our employability and skills support that will go to the heart of supporting those individuals who are furthest from the labour market with the support that they need in order to be able to get back into work and build flourishing careers for themselves. I think that is a much better approach than the cack-handed approach that the Prime Minister outlined to fit notes and sick notes this week, which is a very much more brutal way of approaching a very complex challenge, and he will have heard me talk about that in my statement.
We are absolutely proud of our work in the Welsh Government to support apprentices right across Wales. We have ambitious targets in relation to that. They have been challenging to fulfil, but our commitment to having an apprenticeship programme across Wales that delivers both for individuals, but also for the economy, is undimmed. We’ve made a set of reforms in relation to how we will take forward apprenticeships in the future with a new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research. That will help us have a nimble, flexible approach, a responsive approach, to apprenticeship provision in the future.
He’s right to say that having the right blend of skills for the future is essential to our being able to take advantage of those opportunities and, crucially, connecting those opportunities to the lives of people in Wales, making sure that we are giving every person in Wales the opportunity to share in that future of prosperity. And I think it is important that we are able to map the needs of our economy in the future, so that we can tailor our provision today for that purpose, and there’s an opportunity for us to work with our regional skills partnerships to have a national picture of how we do this. There’s a good example that will be close to his heart in relation to floating offshore wind, where we are already mapping the supply chain and the skills profile required in order to do that.
He asked me toward the end of his questions, in relation to the situation in Tata, what support we are providing. Let me be clear: the Welsh Government has supported, both through capital investment and skills support, the steelworks in Port Talbot for many, many years. We’ve been pressing for 14 years for a UK Government to take seriously the future of steel and to plan for a transition to greener production, and that has only borne fruit in the last few months, despite us having advocated for that for over a decade. Part of the reason why we aren’t able to be very specific at this point about the level of demand that we will inevitably face on the employability support that we provide is because we don’t have the detail of the deal struck between the UK Government and Tata. That has not been provided to us. So, the mapping required for us to be able to specify that closely has not been shared with us. I hope that will change, but we have employability support programmes that will be made available to employees of Tata, and we will still fight to support those jobs and work with our colleagues in the unions and the workforce there to make sure that those jobs are protected as far as we humanly possibly can, and we will step in to support, as we have in the past.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and for setting out your priorities. At face value, there isn’t much I would disagree with here, which is a bit frustrating as an opposition spokesperson. To be fair, there’s little in here that anyone could disagree with. It is essentially a list of economic goods the Government would like to see in Wales, but there’s no substantive plan on how those goods will be delivered, no road map, no waymarkers and no precise sense of the final destination. Sectors across the economy have been calling out for a comprehensive and meaningful industrial strategy for years now, so I do hope we see this soon.
I’ll turn now to the substance of the statement. The challenges and opportunities in Wales’s green economy will be governed by two things. Energy production and grid capacity is one of them, and that's why I welcome seeing energy come within the Cabinet Secretary's portfolio. The second one, of course, is skills and workforce planning, and it is welcome that he recognises that.
Organisations like the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Physics have been clear for some time about the clear skills shortage in the green technology and related sectors. This means that we need to get to grips with the issue and that means understanding clearly where the Government's ambitions on this are. I know the Government will point to the net-zero action plan, and whilst this lays the foundations, if you speak to the further education sector, they remain none the wiser about what exactly the Government wants them to do—what courses to offer, and so on.
We heard from the Conservative spokesperson about a conversation he had with an FE provider. Well, one FE provider said to me that it's currently a case of them putting their finger in the air, seeing which way the wind blows, and hoping for the best. That doesn't fill me with much hope that we are getting to grips with the increasing lag in the green skills agenda.It's one of the reasons why I think we need an annual skills audit, and I got the sense from what the Cabinet Secretary was saying that he's thinking along the same lines here—a skills audit that looks at where the gaps are, where the relevant courses are available and where they aren't, and then uses that data as the basis for action. If that is the case, then that is very much welcome.
Now, you've mentioned targets and ambitions for apprenticeships. Well, if we couple what I've just said on direction and workforce planning with the announcements that came from the budget around apprenticeship funding, the picture is even worse. We've already rehearsed the arguments enough around the loss of EU funds. That doesn't take away from the scale of the challenge and our ability to meet it without sufficient capacity to create more apprenticeship places.We've touched previously on the challenges posed by the apprenticeship levy as well. 
So, can I ask for some clarity, please, on where you seen an apprenticeship strategy heading? I believe you might have already had an invitation from the apprenticeships cross-party group to come to one of our meetings. If you haven't then I'll make sure you do, and take this as an official invitation. There's a lot of goodwill across this Chamber when it comes to apprenticeships to get this right. From the questions asked by Sam Kurtz previously, I hope that's very clear. We're all willing to pull in the same direction here; we just need to know what direction we're pulling in.
Of course, Tata Steel remains and will remain one of the biggest challenges faced within this portfolio, and just this afternoon myself and fellow Members received a petition to save our steel industry from Unite the Union workers. And I'll declare for the record, Llywydd, that I sit on the Port Talbot transition board. I know, like a few of us here, that he is more than aware of the situation. I know he also knows people in the workforce there as well. How do we as a Senedd, not just the Welsh Government, but how do we as a Senedd continue to support those workers, as he sets out in his statement? Is there anything that he needs to do differently to his predecessor, for example? Has he considered some of the ideas put forward by members of Plaid Cymru, like the idea put forward by Adam Price about using the planning system to protect the blast furnaces? Some comments would be very welcome from him on that.
To close, Llywydd, I'll return to how I opened and the fact that there is very little to disagree with in this statement. What he says on prioritising productivity I think is important. Reference to outside advice, working with the Office for National Statistics, again important. We know that Wales-specific data on the economy is hard to come by. What is lacking here, though, is a problem common to almost all Welsh Government statements and particularly those that we have become used to in the economy portfolio, and that is how we measure success. I was very critical of the economic mission set out by the Cabinet Secretary's predecessor because they were vague. They contained no specific or measurable targets. There was no sense of how the Government would seek to deliver on them. They were just a rehashing of previous statements, strategies and frameworks. So, can I therefore ask the Cabinet Secretary to break with that tradition, to be ambitious, to be specific and, finally, outline how he will look to measure success against the vision he's outlined this afternoon?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Luke Fletcher for those comments and for the initial welcome, at least, that he gave to the statement and the common ground that he identified. I would take issue with him in relation to his opening remarks. You can see in any number of the approaches that we've taken over the years a clear approach to the priorities that we will bring to bear in the economy in Wales. So, the manufacturing action plan, he mentioned himself the net-zero skills action plan, which is still in its early stages, and I was at a college in, I think, Sam Kurtz's constituency very recently—Paul Davies's constituency, in fact, forgive me—when I was discussing with the college the close relationship they have with the local renewables sector, which supported apprenticeships and skills provision, and they were demonstrating a very detailed and sophisticated understanding of the needs of the sectors that they are prioritising in that part of Wales. That kind of close working between the sector and FE providers is essential in order to be able to make progress in what is, after all, a very rapidly changing sector. And sometimes, it isn't about a new qualification, it's about adapting existing skills to a new context, making sure they can be applied in that way. That's part of the reason why the personal learning accounts have been tailored towards net-zero skills and digital skills in order to encourage provision through FE colleges to support those sectors.
There is good advice to the Government in the Lusher review, which looked at skills provision into the future, in the way that Luke Fletcher was suggesting that we should take forward. We've responded to that in a very welcoming way. I think there is an opportunity to align economic priorities, skills provision, apprenticeship provision, which he talked about, and how we deliver vocational education and training, so that it's a seamless whole. I think that becomes increasingly important in those sectors of the economy that are rapidly evolving, as this is. But I think it is right to say that being able to do that is essential to being able to take advantage of those opportunities in the future.
I don't think one can dismiss—perhaps he wasn't dismissing it—the significance of the impact of the loss of EU funding on our approach to supporting skills and supporting apprenticeships; it has made a huge difference to the pressures on the Government. And our ambitions are still as they were; they're undimmed, as I said in my earlier answers to questions. So, the challenge that we face is making sure that that is funded to the fullest extent possible. We have had challenges in the budget, but the Member will also know that we found additional money to restore some of those cuts, because we set such high store on apprenticeship provision.
I would like to acknowledge the petition that was presented today by Unite on behalf of steelworkers in Port Talbot. I think it is absolutely critical that we do everything we can as a Senedd, in addition to the work that we will do as a Government, to make sure that this remains very clearly on the agenda for the public in Wales, and for people to understand, in Wales and right across the UK, the impact of the loss of primary steel-making capacity as a foundational sector in our economy. It will be an extraordinary act of economic self-harm for the UK Government to allow this to happen, and it will touch the lives of all of us in a way that perhaps I'm not sure everyone understands quite yet. So, I think a collective effort to remind people of the impact, not solely on the workers and on their communities, but on the economy of Wales and the UK, I think, would be a significant contribution to that.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon and his comments in particular around the steel industry and his ongoing support for the steel industry. Cabinet Secretary, my community is proud of our manufacturing heritage. We continue to attract high-tech manufacturing because of factors like the highly skilled workforce and the competitiveness of the supply chains. We also have research and development capability at the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Broughton, which is vital to work like Airbus's Wing of Tomorrow project. However, we can take nothing for granted. As we look towards a carbon-neutral future, large employers are looking at the supply chains and their ability to decarbonise. For suppliers, their ability to decarbonise will come down to the support available. Cabinet Secretary, what support do you envisage being available, and what support is needed in this particular area? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Jack Sargeant for that. He's right to say this is an essential part of our competitive advantage in the future, our ability to make sure that all parts of our economy are decarbonised and that we have a truly sustainable economy into the future. Leading the way on that, wherever we possibly can, will give us that advantage. He's right to say that investors in sectors that we care a lot about, in sectors that we want to expand in Wales, will look to that. I've been struck, in reading into the finer detail of the portfolio, just how much of the support that we provide—through the development bank, through Business Wales and beyond—comes through the lens of sustainability and ensuring that employers and businesses are decarbonising. There's a piece of work under way at the moment that will provide further, I hope, very useful guidance, very practical guidance, to businesses right across Wales in the kind of supply chains that Jack Sargeant is talking about, which will provide that additional practical support as well as the funding that we provide. And we will look to provide, through the development bank and others, increasing funding, as resources allow, in order to support businesses to do that.

Paul Davies AC: Can I also welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his new role? As Chair of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I look forward to scrutinising him and his officials going forward. In fact, the Cabinet Secretary will be joining the committee tomorrow morning to give evidence to the committee's inquiry on the Development Bank of Wales.
Today's statement sets out the Cabinet Secretary's economic priorities, and he tells us a bit more about the direction of travel over the coming months. As has already been said by my colleague Samuel Kurtz, the latest labour market statistics for Wales have revealed a significant rise in economic inactivity and a significant fall in employment compared with the rest of the UK, and these statistics are, indeed, very worrying. The Cabinet Secretary has told us today about some of his plans for his department going forward, but like Luke Fletcher, I'd be grateful if he could tell us how he'll be monitoring his policies to ensure they're working and actually delivering real outcomes. Policies must produce outcomes, and their effectiveness must be reviewed and tested, so perhaps he could tell us more about how he specifically plans to do that in his new role.

Jeremy Miles AC: I actually agree with what the Member said. I'm not a great one for inputs; I'm much more interested in outcomes from the policies that we bring forward. I would prefer to be measured on those rather than the inputs, so I take the Member's point to heart.
In relation to employability specifically, there is very good data about the effectiveness of the range of policies that we've supported in Wales for many years, and that has, as you will know from, I'm sure, looking over the trends in the ONS data for a number of years, shown very positive results in terms of employability, but there is a continuing demand at a time of increased financial pressure. That is a challenge for us as a Government, but our task in redesigning and refreshing that support is to make sure, as all governments need to do, that the support we provide is appropriate for the needs of our economy at any particular time. He's right to say that the data that he's referring to in his question will be an important part of the evidence base for how we take forward that programme of support, and the reform of that programme. I hope, over the coming weeks, that we will be able to discuss more of that in detail in the Chamber as that work comes to fruition.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm delighted that you mentioned the Welsh language in your statement, something the First Minister didn't do when he made his priorities statement last week, and that was noticed by many people. Whilst agreeing with your comments on Welsh-speaking communities, clearly the Welsh language should be intertwined into all of the Government's economic priorities. So, can you outline how you will ensure that that is the case, and will you be making a similar statement outlining your priorities in terms of the Welsh language?

Jeremy Miles AC: There will be an element of consistency, in terms of priorities for Welsh language policy, with what has been seen in the past, but I'll be very happy to accept the Member's invitation to make a further statement, if the Llywydd would accept it.
What I wanted to note in terms of the Welsh language and the economy is how important it is to have those two portfolios together to ensure, as Heledd Fychan said, that we dovetail the Welsh language in all parts of the economy. Arfor is important, the work of the commission is important in terms of supporting the communities that are heartlands, as we used to call them. It's important that this is an element throughout the economy. There are very robust elements of that in the skills provision and the apprenticeships provision, and working with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and so on. And it's more integrated now that it's in the same portfolio, and I think there will be important opportunities from that.

Mike Hedges AC: The Welsh economy is underweight in high-wage sectors such as life sciences, ICT and professional services, which is one of the reasons for the low gross value added and low median salary. Both Belfast and Edinburgh are in the UK's top 12 cities for ICT, but Swansea and Cardiff are not. Smaller English cities such as Bath and towns such as Reading are also in the top 12. What our economy needs is greater involvement of Welsh universities in developing employment in those sectors, especially life sciences; an ICT growth strategy to ensure Wales has its share of ICT jobs; and the further relocation of civil service jobs, at all levels, from London and the south-east of Wales. The Minister, like me, is very well aware of the crucial importance of the DVLA, the pensions agency and the land registry to our economy in the Swansea bay region, bringing relatively highly paid jobs. We need the continuation of iron and steel making to ensure the continuation of an integrated steel industry in Wales. Does the Minister agree with my analysis and suggested solutions?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Mike Hedges. Can I just take up the point that he started his question with in relation to those key sectors that he spoke about? Actually, a feature of some of the successes that we have had in those sectors is the relationship between the founders of some of those businesses and having studied at Welsh universities—either coming back to Wales to establish a business or establishing a business on graduation. They have been in, as he described them, I think, high-value sectors. This is the point I was making in my statement. I think there is significant potential in the way that we have shown in relation to compound semiconductors, where there is a strong success story in making sure that there is a close alignment between Government, universities, businesses, investors and entrepreneurs around a small number of key economic priorities. There is strong evidence that that enables companies that can offer good well-paid employment to grow, and they will be Welsh success stories. So, that's the rational behind promoting that approach, and I think that he would agree with that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I, like you, will be looking forward to a UK Government that has an industrial strategy, which is not what we've got at the moment. It seems to me handing money out to lose jobs without ensuring that you're going to get them back and firm commitments to make them stick is really not a strategy about anything.
Tony Blair was famously going all down to education, education, education. I hope you, Cabinet Secretary, are going to be focused on skills, skills, skills, because they are critical to all your other priorities, it seems to me—improving productivity, inward investment, and delivering on the opportunities from our transition to net zero. I heard you say that the net-zero skills plan is in its early stages, and I welcome your commitment to outcomes, not inputs.
Great work has been done by places like Coleg Llandrillo on apprenticeships, sadly disrupted, unfortunately, in the celebration of the graduation of many, many skilled people earlier this year. So, how do you plan to align your economic priorities, skills provision, and our vocational education offer seamlessly? My understanding is—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, you need to conclude.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —that there are only three approved frameworks for degree apprenticeships: construction, engineering, and IT. These are all important, but are all very male dominated.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, you need to conclude, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Is it the case that you need to legislate to develop a degree in care, a degree in public service administration, or a degree in skills required to redesign our roads to better meet the needs for all users?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone AC: These are crucial to improving productivity in our public services.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Jenny Rathbone for that. I think, previously, I've said that I think that education is the best economic policy. I think it's absolutely at the heart of giving people those opportunities throughout life. There are other degree apprenticeships, by the way, but I think there's always a case for making sure that we are using that policy intervention to address the needs of our economy, so we'll keep that under review.
As I was saying, one of my ambitions in this portfolio—having come from the education portfolio, I understood some of the dimensions of the policy from that perspective—is that there is more potential for us to align the pre-16 education offer with the skills and the economic priorities. I will be looking forward to doing that, with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education, over the coming months. I mentioned the Lusher review earlier, and at the heart of what Sharron Lusher was recommending to us as a Government is that we have a national approach to that, and I think that there’s a lot to commend that approach.
You mentioned Coleg Llandrillo, and I was there a few weeks ago with Carolyn Thomas, talking to the young apprentices there about their hopes for the future. They were working on renewables and wind turbines and so on, and the excitement that you get from talking to young people starting their careers in a sector that will be there until the end of their working lives and beyond is absolutely exciting, and that's why we are so committed to making sure young people in Wales have access to those apprenticeships.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today, which touches on many issues that are key to driving our economy forwards. I note your reference to the need to provide more opportunities for well-paid work, and this chimes closely with two recent high-profile reports: the Industrial Communities Alliance report, 'More Jobs, Better Jobs, Closer to Home'; and the 'State of the Coalfields 2024', which was commissioned by the Coalfields Regeneration Trust. Cabinet Secretary, what analysis might you have made of these two reports, and how might their findings assist you with the strategies you intend to develop for the south Wales Valleys in particular?
Secondly, I note you reference to how joint working initiatives offer the best chance of success. This month the Cardiff capital region launched its northern Valleys initiative, a £50 million investment programme focused on businesses with high growth potential, in an effort to help transform the northern Valleys. So, how can Welsh Government engage with this programme to help ensure it dovetails with Welsh Government priorities and delivers the very best results for those communities?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Vikki Howells for those important questions. I have not yet read the two reports that she referred to, but I know of the work that she does in relation to former coalfield communities, so I will make sure that I do read those. I think that a place-based approach to some of our interventions, in particular around some of our Valleys communities, is essential, and I do think that she is right to identify the work of the Cardiff capital region. I think that, working hand in hand—Welsh Government, local government and UK Government—is the best way of being able to deliver on our economic ambitions. We're very proud of the work we do as partners in the Cardiff capital region, and indeed in the other growth deals across Wales. I think that is the best way of making sure that we can communicate to people, both in Wales and outside Wales, our ambition to make Wales the best part of the UK to invest in and to work in as well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

6. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport: Priorities for Transport: Listening, partnership, making change

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 today is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport on priorities for transport—listening, partnership, making change. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. When I took up this role, I set my team three priorities: to listen, to work in partnership and to make change happen where it is needed. On 20 mph, we have started that listening. I have been clear in all my conversations that we will put communities at the heart of our thinking and that we will listen to the voices of all citizens.
As I set out in the Senedd last week, there is growing consensus on safe speeds in communities that we can build from. The Welsh Government continues to believe that 20 mph is the right speed limit in places such as near schools, hospitals, nurseries, community centres, play areas and in built-up residential areas. This is particularly the case when children and vulnerable people are in close contact with traffic. The principal objective of the policy is to enable people to feel safer in their communities through reducing collisions. What I am now doing is listening to what people want for the roads in their communities, and pressing ahead with refining the policy and getting the right speed on the right roads. To achieve this, we are initiating a number of actions.
The first element of my approach is to have a genuine programme of listening to people. Between now and July, we will listen to citizens, to bus drivers, emergency services, the police, young people, vulnerable people, businesses, and councillors in county, town and community councils, in order to understand their perspectives on road safety in residential areas. In the last week, I have met leaders and lead transport members from every local authority in Wales to reinforce my commitment to work with them, as the decision makers over speed limits on most roads. I am pleased that they have all agreed to work in partnership with me in the coming weeks and months.
The second element of my plan is to work in partnership with key bodies to prepare the ground for change. Councils are already looking at local roads where changes might be needed. As part of our listening programme, I will encourage people to get in touch with their local council to tell them where they think 20 mph should be targeted. Information on how you can do this will be available on the Welsh Government website. I will also work with town and community councils to make sure that their voices are part of this national conversation. Alongside this, Welsh Government will revise its exemptions guidance, again by working in partnership with councils.
I am pleased to inform Members today that my officials have asked the existing external review to bring their work to a rapid conclusion. I expecttheir final report within the next few weeks. I will publish it as soon as possible.
I'll then publish revised exceptions guidance by the summer. This will allow for local authorities to better target 20 mph on appropriate routes. I'm delighted to report today that, in order to support that process, we will draw on advice from the County Surveyors' Society Wales, who will also be available to provide advice and support on changes to all local authorities. Ultimately, the decision rests with the highway authority.
The third element is to then deliver the necessary changes on the ground. Once local authorities have worked with communities and new guidance is finalised, highway authorities will be able to commence the process of adjusting speed limits on relevant roads, and I expect this process to begin from September. Ultimately, the degree of change in each of our local authorities will not be determined by me and the Welsh Government, but by the public and councils, as the highway authority for most residential roads. And let me be clear on another important point that's emerged through my engagement with council leaders this week: I absolutely recognise the range of pressures facing our partners in local government, and this Government is committed to ensuring that they have the resources they need to implement change. We will not expect councils, who are facing difficult financial pressures, to cover the cost of adjusting routes back to 30 mph.
To summarise: we will listen, work in partnership with councils and support delivery of targeted change on the ground. This approach isn't limited to our work on speed limits. I'll continue to listen to people across Wales on transport issues that they face. We will strengthen partnerships with our regions, letting them shape their own transport priorities that work for their communities. And we will lobby the UK Governments, present and future, to do the same, and to invest as needed here. And we know that change is possible. We're starting to see the results of transforming the core Valleys lines. During the first full month of operating, rail services on the Treherbert line were on time 92.5 per cent of the time.
We are taking a very different approach in Wales: we're putting passengers first and ensuring our services meet the demands of when people both want and need to travel post COVID,and we are providing more services to allow them to do this. Thanks to our £800 million investment in a new fleet, passengers across Wales are now able to travel on new trains, and Transport for Wales services are today performing better than any other operator in Wales.
By reducing funding for operations, maintenance and renewals in cash terms, despite all the inflation that we've seen, the UK Government is directing a managed decline of Welsh rail infrastructure outside the CVL. Reduced asset reliability, more service-affecting failures and reduced reliability are expected, according to Network Rail, and it's only the Welsh Government's investment in new trains that will prevent this from having a more severe impact on performance and passengers in Wales.
We are also going to build new roads and improve our existing ones, but we'll raise the bar and build better than before. We'll use the most pioneering techniques from around the world. We'll also better design our transport networks to accommodate bus priority lanes, and I'm keen to look at how we can support more people to walk between home, bus stops and their final destinations.
If you're in any doubt about the future of roads, let me say this: the renewed A494 River Dee crossing will go ahead; the Mold Road improvements into Wrexham will go ahead; we have accepted the north Wales transport commission's recommendations for better traffic management around the Menai bridge. These are just three examples. In these, and other areas, we will proceed with plans that reflect the net-zero challenge that we face.
Alongside this, we'll continue to reform how our transport system is organised. In particular, our landmark bus Bill will correct the disastrous failure of privatisation in the mid-1980s. It will allow us to work with regions to design bus networks their communities need and put contracts in place to deliver them. I look forward to working with you all in partnership and hope you will join our mission to take Wales forward. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: There are a large number of individuals who wish to speak. How many I get through depends on yourselves keeping to your time and also the Minister on being succinct in his answers. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for this afternoon's statement. It's clear from the rhetoric that this Welsh Government has finally cottoned on to the fact that the 20 mph policy has been a complete shambles. Whilst I'm genuinely delighted to see the Cabinet Secretary has come round to the Welsh Conservative way of thinking with a targeted approach, for me personally it doesn't go far enough. We do need to see the Government return Wales's default speed limit to 30 mph with exceptions made for 20 mph rather than the other way round. Sadly, Cabinet Secretary, with all due respect, following your statement last week, your words have in fact caused significant confusion, with many residents' groups and organisations who are now under the impression that Welsh roads will be returned to 30 mph following the statement today, but that simply isn't the case, is it? Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm just for the benefit of people across Wales that this Government will not be rescinding the 20 mph policy today? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice, because if you're not completely overhauling this policy, and the Government isn't, sadly, truly listening to the public, and despite all the warm words coming forward, nothing is changing as of today.
I appreciate that you are speeding up the review and have committed to listening to the people, but you can't ignore the fact that just under half a million people across the country have made their views on this £33 million project abundantly clear: they simply don't want it. One of the main things that have upset and angered a lot of constituents was your predecessor's and the previous Government's lack of consultation with the public. They understandably felt ignored and neglected. You say the Welsh Government is going to listen to citizens, bus drivers, emergency services, councils and businesses, amongst others, between now and July, and I'm truly thrilled that you're doing this. Whilst I really do, sincerely, with every ounce of my soul, welcome this approach, that's a lot of people that you're going to be engaging with in such a short space of time, so how can you be confident that you're going to encapsulate the views of the people of Wales in a relatively short time frame? You've listed some of the groups that you're engaging with, but can I also please urge you to speak with groups like the Road Haulage Association?
Cabinet Secretary, you're making all the right noises; you're saying all the right things about listening and engaging with the public and other organisations, but how is it going to work? That's my question. How are you going to be having these conversations? Will you be inviting written representations? Will you be going into communities all across Wales and hold public meetings to hear residents' views? Let's not forget, previously, the Welsh Government engaged with the public over this very policy, and it was claimed that 60 per cent people actually supported 20 mph. And then it turned out that just a mere 1,002 people actually took part in the consultation to begin with. So, Cabinet Secretary, this Government needs to ensure it goes further in the pursuit of true feelings of the public this time round. As far as I'm concerned, if this Government was truly planning on listening to the people of Wales, then it would accept this law has been a mistake and rescind it. Anything less, I'm afraid, is just paying lip service. And let's be clear, imposing a policy, then deciding to take on board the public's view is not the way the Government should be operating, but fair enough. Government should engage with the public on a policy, tweak it in light of comments, and then roll with it.
One of the things people have found frustrating about this policy—and there are lots—is the process of contacting local authorities to submit suggestions of roads that should be returned to 30 mph. Each local authority seems to have a different process and it isn't always easy to contact them. Therefore, will you commit to streamlining the process for appeals and requests to be submitted? In the name of fairness, perhaps—and this is a suggestion—a uniform process for all councils across Wales would be the best approach. This would make things a lot easier and help restore the public's faith and confidence in the Government, as well as the local council when it comes to this policy.
We also know another big issue with this 20 mph scheme was the confusion around guidance given to local authorities by the Welsh Government when it came to implementing this policy was made slightly unclear. Now, Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure the same error isn't repeated again when issuing revised guidance to Welsh councils? We all know that councils are rightly going to have a say in shaping this policy, given they’re the ones that we call ‘the boots on the ground’. From the conversations you've had with council leaders so far, combined with your knowledge, to what scale are you expecting the guidance for local authorities to change, as this will have a direct impact on the number of roads changing, and the cost? The cost of these changes, as you said, will be met by the Welsh Government, therefore do you or your officials have a rough estimate as to how much this is going to cost? We're told here in this Chamber time and time again that the Welsh Government is cash-strapped, and this isn’t a dig—please rest assured when I say this—as I’m really happy that you're somewhat rowing back on this policy, but I wonder if you could outline where this additional money is going to be coming from. I am happy to hear the Welsh Government's road building ban appears to be coming to an end, with a pledge to build some important road infrastructure projects. You've listed a few here today, Cabinet Secretary, but it mustn't stop there. We need to see schemes, and you mentioned the third Menai crossing, and a Dinas Powys bypass and Chepstow bypass would be very welcome and do need to be delivered.
Cabinet Secretary, you've committed to improving our existing roads, something the Welsh Conservatives have long again called for and committed to using the most pioneering techniques from around the world. Can you please outline what some of these—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to conclude now, please.

Natasha Asghar AS: Just briefly touching on—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Now, please.

Natasha Asghar AS: —and I'm conscious of time, just how is the Cabinet Secretary—[Interruption.] The bus franchising will be answering the bus industry's prayers. Instead of making—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No. No, I've asked for time—[Interruption.] This is—[Interruption.] No, Natasha. There are lots of people who want to speak. You have to stick to your time, otherwise no-one is going to be called, including your colleagues.

Natasha Asghar AS: I understand. I completely understand. So, Minister, please answer the questions as to how you're going to get Wales going forward and get Wales moving again. That's it.

Ken Skates AC: May I thank the Conservative spokesperson for her valuable contribution to this statement? Let's just build on the consensus that we reached last week, first of all. We all agree that 20 mph works really well where it matters most. Outside schools, hospitals, in heavily built-up areas, where children are coming into close contact with motorised vehicles, it works; the 20 mph policy works in those areas, and it will remain. But we also accept, do we not, across the Chamber, that on certain routes it hasn't been appropriate, and we will move swiftly, at the least cost, to correct that.
Now, there are two options on the table—two options—one, the Welsh Government's option, which is by far the quickest and the least expensive, or the Conservative position, which I think is being maintained, which is to get rid of the 20 mph policy, have every single 20 mph road returned back to 30 mph everywhere and anywhere, and then to use traffic regulation orders—[Interruption.] No, TROs, they'd have to use TROs, it's the only means available, to then return 30 mph routes back to 20 mph outside schools, outside hospitals, outside play areas. It would cost £3,500 per road. At the last count, there were 148,000 streets in Wales. They would bankrupt Wales, in all likelihood several councils, and they'd also tie up councils for years upon years in bureaucracy and red tape. We want to bring consensus where there is disagreement. [Interruption.] I would welcome the Conservatives' agreement that we have the plans to do just that.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Cabinet Secretary, one second. I would like to listen to the Cabinet Secretary, so if all Members on all sides would allow the Cabinet Secretary to give the answer, it would be very helpful. Cabinet Secretary.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was trying to deliver that in the most convivial manner possible and in a way that shows humility, I hope, in a way that shows compassion, and in a way that shows that we are responding to the public. If only UK Tories could do the same. No humility on crashing the economy, no acceptance of the incompetence on HS2, and, certainly, in the way that climate change and asylum is being weaponised by the Prime Minister, zero compassion as well.
In terms of the conversations that are going to take place, organisations such as the Road Haulage Association are already scheduled to meet with me. This will be a major exercise in bringing as many interested parties and as many people together to reach a point of consensus, where people agree on that consensus we agreed on last week that, in the right places, 20 mph works. Where adjustments need to be made, they will be, with revised guidance and with financial support from the Welsh Government.
Now, I will be going into communities. I spoke with The Leader newspaper just earlier today, and I've said I will join them in Buckley, which was one of the pilot schemes. I love Buckley. I spent many, many Saturday evenings at the Tivoli ballroom growing up. I really, really like Buckley, and I wish to visit there as soon as I can to look at how it's operating on the ground and also to look at the routes that people wish to see revert back to 30 mph.
There is one more important point that I'd like to make on this: we need to have a consistent approach across Wales, not just for the listening exercise, which I agree with the Member on, but also in terms of the application. Convening the county surveyors is designed to do just that, to make sure that councils have the confidence and the support to be able to apply reversions in a consistent, sensible way whilst listening to the public at all times.

Delyth Jewell AC: First, I'd like to welcome you once again to this role. I look forward to working with you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to set out some of the areas where we feel that there should be priority. I've raised already my concerns about the Welsh Government's decision not to pursue legal action about HS2. HS2's tracks don't travel into Wales at all, but we are paying for it all the same. Because of some trickery in the Treasury, it has been branded a project for England and Wales—a sham of a decision, clearly disprovable by anyone with a map and a modicum of common sense, a compass and a conscience. I'd ask again why the Welsh Government is not challenging this designation in law. Why won't you pursue this in the courts? This isn't simply a stand to take on principle—billions of pounds are at stake; our Government should be demanding them, because that money would have a material effect on improving our own transport services.
Cabinet Secretary, that brings me to another key priority: sustainable bus funding. Our bus services have been cut drastically, prices have gone up. In communities like rural areas, like parts of the Valleys as well, where train lines don't reach, many people are reliant on bus services, but more and more they're failing to get to people to get them where they need to be and to get them home. Now, I'm a huge supporter of investment in rail. I also don't think that should be done at the expense of bus services. So, how will you square those priorities, please?
Now, I'd be keen to work with you to see more being done on transport safety, and you touched on this. I was delighted some weeks ago to have a legislative proposal passed by the Senedd to improve street lighting at and near majorstations and bus stops, improved accessibility, to look at the feasibility of an expectation on public transport providers that they should get vulnerable passengers to a place of safety after dark when services are cancelled. I'd be really keen to work with you and your department to maintain momentum on those issues.
And talking about safety again, I will turn to 20 mph. Now, I agree with you that the implementation of this policy had its flaws; it's led to confusion, it led to frustration. A Plaid Cymru amendment was passed by this Senedd six months ago calling for a continuous review of the policy's implementation, for improved guidance and powers for councils to redesignate roads to 30 mph in those areas where 20 mph doesn't make sense and to listen to local concerns. Could you confirm that the Government is now acting on that Plaid Cymru amendment that was passed?
Now, there were problems, but I don't want us to lose sight either of how radical this policy is. Sustrans have written to MSs pointing out that a four-year-old child was knocked down and killed in Birmingham a few short days ago. She was playing on the pavement outside a playground; she should have been safe. There will be voices, loud voices, who'll try to persuade us that it's only outside schools that children need to be kept safe, forgetting, perhaps, that children don't live in schools. They live on streets, they play on streets, their lives are just as precious and as vulnerable on streets. I'd implore you, please, and I know that there are loud voices, but, please, the voices of those who'll be most affected by this are still too young to be heard loudly.
Finally, I call on the Government to reconsider the decision it's made on learner transport. Too many children are being let down by this decision. I am particularly concerned about how it'll affect Welsh-medium schools, again, in communities like the Valleys that have larger catchment areas. If we're going to reach a million Welsh speakers, we have to make it easier, not more difficult, for parents who don't speak Welsh themselves to take that step to send their children to Welsh-medium education. We can't make it more difficult for them to get there, or none of us will end up where we want or need to be.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Delyth Jewell for her contribution as well today? I am looking forward to working with opposition spokespeople in areas of their concern specific to their parties and their particular geographical areas. I'm also looking forward to working with Members across the Chamber to explore solutions for the challenges that we face and that the people that we serve face on a daily basis.
In terms of bus funding, I think it's an incredibly valuable point that the Member makes, that bus services are absolutely vital for many people in our society. One in five people just don't have access to any other means of transport. For them, the bus is simply not a choice, it is the only available transport, so it's vitally important that we create a bridge through to reregulation. Once we've had the bus Bill passed by this Senedd, and I hope that all parties support that legislation, we will be able to design a system where we put passengers ahead of profit. In the meanwhile, we have to create a bridge to that period. Transport for Wales are working very closely with bus operators and with local authorities looking at how we can use existing resources and identify further resources to improve bus services across Wales.
In terms of safety for women and girls, just today I've had a report from the Rail Delivery Group that they would like to conduct work in this very area. I'm looking forward to learning more shortly, when I meet with them, on what their work entails and what the likely outcomes will be, and I hope that this might be something that we can discuss in further detail when we meet later this week. I also think that we have reached a point, I genuinely do, on 20 mph where there is consensus that, in those areas where children are at risk—and you're right, it's not just outside schools—where children are at risk, where vulnerable people are at risk, where the elderly are at risk, where people walking and cycling are at risk, we need to ensure that they are protected. We need to help people feel safer in their communities. And of course, where there are routes identified by the people we serve and by local authorities that perhaps should return to 30 mph, we will assist in that endeavour. But the principle of making Wales safer stands, and I think that that is supported, in spite of some of the rhetoric, by the majority, the vast majority, of Members here.
In terms of learner transport, this is an area of concern that is on a long list of subjects that should be attracting further resource, even though our budgets keep dwindling. It is something that I wish to approach with great sympathy and empathy, but it is a reality that we face incredibly stretching times insofar as Welsh budgets are concerned.
And finally, with regard to HS2, the legal advice was very clear that we would likely fail. When you take legal advice of that nature, you have to judge whether it would be sensible and prudent for the public purse to pursue something that you know will be lost. That said, we should have benefited from £350 million to date. There are huge prizes to be won if a UK Government—and I doubt it'll be the present one, but if a future UK Government—commits to investing in Welsh rail infrastructure as is needed and as we are owed; huge benefits could be accrued from this in the north, in the south, in mid and in west Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: The movement to 20 mph zones was happening well before the default 20 mph speed limit was introduced. In areas where there were not 20 mph zones, chicanes, speed bumps and other means of slowing traffic were being introduced.
I've been told by constituents, 'There is no need for speed limits; let drivers decide', that death and severe injury is a price worth paying for 30 mph, and, saddest of all that, if a child gets knocked over and killed, 'Well, it's their fault.' I support 20 mph on estate roads and areas of older housing. A and B roads are different; that is why they're classified as such. And I'm requesting that decisions on speed limits on A and B roads are decided by local authorities without any Welsh Government guidance.
Does the Minister agree that, on public transport, there needs to be a rebalancing of support between buses and rail? To most of my constituents, public transport means buses and, as the Minister is well aware, over 80 per cent of public transport journeys are made by bus. Privatisation has failed for bus users and I'm looking forward to the bus Bill.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mike Hedges for his comments? They are very, very difficult to disagree with or to find any fault with. I would agree that we do need to identify means of improving bus provision across Wales, and that will be done in conjunction with our pursuit of the legislation that is so desperately needed. The privatisation of bus services in the mid 1980s was an absolute disaster, a great mistake, but we will correct it with our legislation, and we will look for any and every way to improve bus services for the people of Wales in the meantime.
I also think, in terms of 20 mph, of course, 20 mph zones were around before the policy was introduced and I seem to recall, a few years ago, Members of this Chamber rushing to have photos taken, shouting that '20's plenty', but who now oppose the policy. I think it's absolutely essential, though, that we do calm down and cool down the rhetoric over this from all sides, because I believe that we can reach a point where there is consensus across the country that, where 20 mph works, it works really well in protecting people and should remain, and, where it doesn't work, corrections can be made.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I'm just interested to know how your guidance and your process might address some other road restriction speed limits as well, such as 30 mph and 40 mph. So, for example, there are many 30 mph zonesthat are more appropriate to be 40 mph, and 40 mph zonesto be 30 mph. For example, if I travel along the trunk road in mid Wales, very similar hamlets, one is currently 20 mph and one is 40 mph. In my view, it would be far more sensible if both were to be 30 mph. So, just to understand how that could be addressed in the statement that you've outlined today, Minister.
Also, over the last 13 years, my experience of being a local member is that often I get representations made from town or community councils, and county councillors, and I'm asked to make representations on their behalf. If it's a trunk road, I make them to Welsh Government Ministers. The usual answer that I get back is, 'Well, we'll look at this at the next roads review, which takes place in so many years' time.' If I write to local authorities, the answer that I get back is, 'We don't really have the current funds available.' So, how, in this process, can you make it easier, where there is clear local support through the town, community, local Senedd Members, to make an alteration to a road restriction, and that isn't the same response that I have just outlined to you?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Russell George for his contribution? I had a conversation with another of your colleagues, Darren Millar, this afternoon, regarding a trunk road through his constituency. It's in Llanferres. Three of my nephews went to school in Llanferres, and I know that area very well. It's currently 40 mph, and Darren Millar would like to see it reduced to 30 mph. So would I. I think that it would make great sense in terms of road safety.
There are other routes like that across Wales that perhaps should be reduced in speed. The most appropriate means of doing that would be through TROs. Now, it's accepted across all parties, I think, that the legislation that underpins traffic regulation orders is clunky and not fit for purpose. That is legislation that currently sits with the UK Government. It is reserved responsibility that applies to it. So, we would wish to see a Government in the future amend the problems that were created through the Act that underpins traffic regulation orders.
In the meantime, there are two challenges facing local authorities. One is funding, which I have already rehearsed, and the second is the actual process and the volume of requests for routes to be changed. So, I will make representations to UK Government Ministers concerning the Act from which traffic regulation orders stem, in the hope that we can have a far more streamlined and efficient means of changing speed limits across the UK in the future.

Heledd Fychan AS: I welcome today's statement. Can I focus my comments on buses, please? I was pleased to hear in your response the acknowledgement that this is the only mode of transport for a number of people in our communities. I know that it is often one of the complaints, because it then impacts on people being able to reach medical appointments, which then means missed appointments, and so on. We do need to ensure that there is a focus, so I welcome the comments by Mike Hedges as well, because getting this right has to be a priority to tackle isolation within our communities as well.
I would also like to build on the point made by Delyth Jewell around the learner travel measure, and ask can you please work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to see if there's anything that we can do to ensure that those children who are missing school currently because they can't afford to go on a bus—. There are changes coming in, in places like Rhondda Cynon Taf, which will mean that fewer pupils are eligible. Can you please work to ensure that no child misses a day of school because they can't afford the bus?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I can assure the Member that I will work very closely with the education Cabinet Secretary on the future of learner travel. It is something that I know Lynne Neagle is very, very concerned by—the need to ensure that we reduce absenteeism within school, which is often associated with other factors, but can be down to a lack of availability of transport.It's still a fact, I'm afraid, that in parts of Wales, up to 20 per cent of young people can't even get to their job interview because they can't afford or access public transport, predominantly in areas only served by bus services.
Please let me assure you that the future of buses in Wales is one of my very top priorities. Improving public transport is absolutely vital in ensuring that people have an alternative to the car. If we are to ensure that we get modal shift, we have to make sure that there is a twenty-first century public transport system that offers hope and opportunity to all people in Wales.

Hefin David AC: I can think of three reasons why this policy needs amending. First of all, there is a road in my constituency that is 20 mph, and almost everyone agrees it should be 30 mph. There are barely any houses on it, and people are just ignoring the speed limit, which undermines the whole 20 mph ethos. There's a road in my constituency that is 60 mph and has three houses on it, and should really be, at that point, 20 mph. And there are industrial estates that the bus companies have said should be 30 mph, not 20 mph, because they are slowing down their routes. Those three examples, I've raised with the council, and each time, the response is, 'We can't do it, because the guidance won't let us.' So, there's clearly a need to review this guidance, to sort this problem out, but also, importantly, involve local ward councillors in this decision, of whatever party. You know that they're going to be very closely—or the best councillors, anyway—in touch with residents, and having them involved in the discussion will help bring further relevant change that will resolve some of the problems with the introduction of this policy.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Hefin David for his comments, and make two points in response? One, I'm keen to visit constituencies and regions with Members to understand how this policy is benefiting people and communities, as outlined by many people, but also to look at those routes that may be for review and reversion back to 30 mph. So, I'm happy to visit any constituency with any Member as part of our programme of listening to the people of Wales. And I would agree with Hefin David on the second point that ward councillors are crucially important in ensuring that we listen to people and apply changes that are appropriate, and sensitive as well, to communities. It was a fact during COVID, which we were reminded of on a regular basis, that the closer you get to communities, as an elected representative, the more trusted you are. So, involving councillors in the programme of listening will be absolutely at the heart of what we do.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Can I take the opportunity to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his role and begin by thanking his predecessor for the work that he did in securing traffic lights at the Nash Fingerpost junction on the A477, not yet completed, but I know that the community are most grateful for the work on that? However, I do repeat my calls for a full review of safety along the A477 from St Clears to Pembroke Dock, following a number of issues raised with me by residents of Milton, Red Roses and Llanddowror. And can I ask and request that this review be extended to cover the stretch of the A40 between St Clears and Carmarthen? Now, this stretch of road has been dubbed one of the nation's most dangerous roads, considering the large number of junctions on the main carriageway, most of which do not have feeder lanes. Indeed, since the start of the decade, we have sadly seen this road claim three lives—those of James Beer in September 2020, Dyfed-Powys Police Officer Lynwen Thomas in February 2021, and Owen Lewis in the early hours of Easter Monday this year. A transport appraisal guidance study is being undertaken on this stretch of road, however, I would be keen to learn the outcome of this. But if the Cabinet Secretary is genuine in his offer of listening, can I ask that he heeds my calls and creates a safety review of the whole A40 and A477 between Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Ken Skates AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for his comments and for his questions, and I know from Joyce Watson and Eluned Morgan just how important road safety is in mid and west Wales. I understand that the A477 Nash Fingerpost junction was an issue that went to the Petitions Committee and was considered by Jack Sargeant and the committee. I am very grateful indeed to Lee Waters for pursuing safety improvements at that junction, which will be delivered.
I'm also open to discussion about how to improve the whole of the A477, and if the Member would wish to have a meeting with me, I'm more than happy to discuss that further. And, of course, on the A40, safety improvements between St Clears and Carmarthen are now being considered, and a road safety scheme is included in the national transport delivery plan. It's currently being taken forward through the WelTAG stages, and the scheme, I can guarantee you, will benefit all road users. But, again, I'd be happy to have a deeper conversation about that particular programme with the Member.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: There is now a clear impression in rural Wales that this Government has turned its back on our rural communities. In my constituency alone, we've seen significant cutbacks in bus services with the T2, T3, T19 and 32 services being reduced. The result of this, of course, is that people can't get to school, or the colleges, people can't go to shops or to their workplaces. Moreover, last week, we heard that the rail service on the Cambrian line is going to be scaled back, but it's going to be extended during the summer months for tourists, and the same is true of the Heart of Wales line, with services being cut back.
You said at the beginning of your statement that your intention and hope is to listen to the people of Wales. In all of these cases, there's been no full consultation. The people in the communities that have been impacted haven't had their voices heard, and nor have they been able to take part in a process to make these decisions. So, what steps will you take to ensure that these bus services will be restored, and that we won't lose rail services on the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales line?

Ken Skates AC: I'd like to guarantee to Mabon ap Gwynfor that the future of rural communities is just as important to this Welsh Government as the future of urban communities. And in terms of support for bus services and consultation with communities in rural areas, I’ve already spoken with Transport for Wales to ensure that, in the future, full consultations do take place with people in communities where service changes may have an impact.
I think the point that the Member makes about challenges within rural areas is particularly important in respect of the work being taken forward by both Transport for Wales and local authorities on the regional transport plans. These are hugely, hugely important plans that will enable and empower regions to develop service patterns, service delivery, for the communities that they serve. I’m a firm believer that local authorities and councillors know their communities best, and so with them having the pen on regional transport plans, supported by Transport for Wales, I firmly believe that we will see a better network of public transport for the people of Wales across all communities.

Buffy Williams AS: I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for today's statement. Public transport in Rhondda is experiencing one of its biggest transformations with the promise of greener, faster and more frequent rail travel, but in Rhondda Fach there's no train service, the bypass only reaches as far as Pont-y-gwaith, and even though there are four buses an hour, residents who travel by bus are paying more than residents in the Fawr who can travel by train. There's a passionate group of people who are campaigning for over £200 million to complete the second phase of the bypass, but I think there's a much more achievable solution to be found that can be actioned far sooner. Over 600 residents shared their views with me regarding the reintroduction of the train shuttle buses, with over 90 per cent saying they’d catch the train bus and over 85 per cent saying they’d use the train more. Will the Minister please meet with me to discuss this data and the potential of a wider discussion with local bus providers, Transport for Wales and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Buffy Williams for her request and say, yes, I’m more than happy to meet with you and your residents and any other interested party concerning the future of public transport in your communities? I think you make an invaluable point about social justice being at the heart of public transport provision, and we’re determined, through legislation, through the bus Bill, to pursue social justice for people who, at the moment, are not able to get from home to services or to work easily and reliably and in an affordable way by bus or by rail. I do know that, within the Rhondda, the support that is being provided for bus services has meant that Rhondda Cynon Taf council has been able to protect and retain bus services in their areas, as well as reinstating some evening bus services on some routes, but I do note the particular challenge facing residents in Rhondda Fach, which is why I will be happy to meet with them and with you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: In the statement, the Minister says
'we have accepted the North Wales Transport Commission's recommendations for better traffic management around the Menai bridge.'
The commission’s recommendations related to traffic management around the Britannia bridge. Has the Minister got the right bridge? And given his statements about being willing, perhaps, to look again at the need for the dualling, essentially, of the Britannia bridge, with a third Menai crossing, can he give us some more details about how he intends to take that forward?

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, and apologies—I thought I referred to the Menai crossing, which I always consider to be the Britannia bridge. If I said 'Menai bridge', I apologise, but I did mean to say 'Menai crossing'.
Now, the recommendations from the Burns commission have now received financial support for taking forward, and they include interventions that can be taken forward at relatively swift pace as well that should improve resilience in that area. However, at the same time, we recognise that we need to keep an eye on the future needs of people of Ynys Môn, listen to communities, listen especially to the local authority, and to that end I will be meeting with councillors to discuss the future of the Menai crossing and a potential third Menai crossing. I have to just caveat any discussion about future road building, though, with the warning that our public finances are incredibly tight, particularly on the capital front.
But I do recognise, particularly with the potential of Wylfa Newydd, that there may be significant additional demand for road space and for public transport as well on the island and to the island, which will need to be addressed as part of any consideration of what is built at the Wylfa Newydd site, and the potential for additional employment. So, I will be meeting with the Member, I am sure, about the Menai crossing, whether it's part of a cross-party group or whether it's part of a bilateral between us, and I'll be very pleased to hear his views on this subject.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome the statement, Cabinet Secretary. Partnership working will be really important for councils in north Wales, as they have a lot of arterial routes with high-density residential areas along those arterial routes. I welcome that the A494 Dee crossing, which has been deteriorating over the last few years, will go ahead. Will consultation on the plans be happening this summer, as was planned before? And just regarding locally maintained roads as well as strategic highways, they're also rapidly deteriorating. I know we've had over a decade of austerity that has really impacted. Going forward, how will you be able to address this with your limited budget?

Ken Skates AC: I think Carolyn Thomas makes a really important point about the need to maintain the road network. The road network is for all users—for motorists and for cyclists—and a poorly maintained road network is dangerous for motorists and for cyclists. One key theme that has emerged from the discussions that I've had with leaders and lead members this week across Wales is the need to address concerns over road maintenance. Of course, financial considerations are at the forefront of what we do at the moment, given that public finances are under strain, but we are looking for every way of releasing as much money as we can to address those roads that do require urgent maintenance.
Of course, it's also worth bearing in mind—and I stand to be corrected by the Minister for finance on this—that local authorities have been better protected during and since austerity than local authorities in England, which perhaps explains why, when you drive on roads across the border, you find potholes everywhere. That's not to say we don't have a challenge here in Wales, but at least we've better protected councils to keep their roads better maintained.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'd like to reiterate the point that Heledd Fychan has made already about home-to-school transport. Something that has become very clear to me since my election to the Senedd is the barrier that that does prove to many families, not just in my own region but across Wales, especially for those from low-income backgrounds. I give the example of the Llynfi valley. At the top of the Llynfi valley—there'll be Members in the Chamber who are aware of it—you have Caerau. We have a situation where children from low-income backgrounds are needing to walk over an hour to get to school in all weathers, some of them turning up to school then, if it had been raining, soaking wet and sitting in school for the rest of the day soaking wet. That is a huge barrier for many people, a barrier that shouldn't exist, and I hope that the Government will solve it as soon as possible.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Luke Fletcher for making again a very valuable point about learner transport? All young people should expect to be able to educated where they wish to be educated, whether it's through the medium of Welsh or English, and should be given the support necessary. I suspect that this will be agenda item No. 1 when I meet with Delyth Jewell later this week. I'll be sure to have a thorough conversation about the future of learner travel and what we can do to help young people across Wales.

John Griffiths AC: May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today? I very much agree that there is a strong consensus in this Chamber and also out in our communities that the 20 mph policy is fundamentally right, and is needed to protect our communities, particularly children. That's what I hear from people in Newport East. But they do also very much agree that there are a small number of roads that could be returned from 20 mph to 30 mph without compromising that road safety that is so important. So, I very much agree with what the Cabinet Secretary has said today.
One of the matters I'd quickly like to raise is active travel, Cabinet Secretary. It's very good that Welsh Government has made so much funding available for active travel, which I think is absolutely right, but it is unevenly accessed across Wales. Although there are different circumstances in different areas, I believe there is a case to be made for a stronger amount of central support, recognising the different capacityin different local authorities' highways departments, and active travel officers particularly. There's a role here for Transport for Wales, I know, but will you make sure that that central drive is there to ensure that all our communities benefit from active travel policy?

Ken Skates AC: John Griffiths has always been a powerful advocate for protecting young and vulnerable people, and I thank him for the work that he's done in that regard. On active travel, I think the Member is absolutely right that support is required by local authorities to develop plans and proposals for improved active travel, which is why we're developing those regional transport plans, with the assistance of Transport for Wales. Transport for Wales have brought invaluable insight and advice to many local authorities already, on an individual basis and on a regional basis, and I'm determined to make sure that that support continues to be available to councils across Wales.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I very much welcome your emphasis on consulting stakeholders before you rush into decision making. I've yet to meet anybody who wants the speed limit on the road they live on to be increased, and I just wonder if you had—I'd be interested to hear from them. You say in your statement that you plan to allow the Welsh Government to cover the cost of adjusting routes back to 30 mph. That sounds a little bit like rewarding failure to properly consult communities in the first place, given that some local authorities have interpreted the regulations very differently from others. I just want it clarified that the Welsh Government would also cover the costs of reducing from 30 mph to 20 mph in areas where people want slower speeds in their communities.
Lastly, I very much welcome your emphasis on bus priority lanes—a really important way of increasing reliability of buses. I wondered, in your look at supporting people to walk between home and final destinations, if you would consider making a priority of walking and cycling routes to and from school, as, obviously, children are the most vulnerable on the road.

Ken Skates AC: I couldn't agree more. In short, yes, we do need to prioritise walking routes and cycling routes to and from schools. I believe that the latest statistics show that there has actually been an increase in the proportion of young people who walk or cycle to school. That's very welcome, but I know, from conversations at the school gate, that many more parents would like their children to cycle, or would walk with their children or cycle with their children, if the available infrastructure was there. Safety is always the No. 1 concern that parents raise with me, so I'm determined to pursue better active travel opportunities between houses and school environments.
In terms of supporting councils, yes, we'll be supporting councils on changes in either direction.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, can I ask you about the A494 in Pwll-glas and in Llanferres? You mentioned the need for appropriate speeds on appropriate roads. Clearly, the speed limit of 40 mph through both of those villages is inappropriate, and, of course, these are on the trunk road network for which the Welsh Government is directly responsible. You've indicated yourself that you feel that 30 mph is more appropriate in Llanferres; the previous First Minister undertook, very kindly, a visit to Pwll-glas, and saw for himself the inappropriate speed limit through that village and felt, in the same way that you do, that there ought to be a speed reduction. Can I ask how long it will take the Welsh Government to effect these changes on the roads for which it is responsible, not just those roads for which local authorities are responsible?
And very finally, unadopted roads are still a blight in many communities across Wales. We all have them in our communities, but I've got the biggest unadopted road problem, in an area called Sandy Cove in Kinmel Bay, which was flooded recently, and because of the lack of drains on those roads, those floods were made worse. What action is the Welsh Government taking, what resources is the Welsh Government making available, to address this blight in our communities, so that people can live on roads that they can be proud of?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Darren Millar for his questions and agree that the residents of Llanferresand Pwll-glas have been very clear that the speed limit through their community should be reduced? It is something that officials within the Welsh Government are aware of. I'm happy to visit either or both of those villages, if the Member would wish me to, just take a look myself again at what's happening on the ground. In regard to time frames for any potential change, I'd need to write to the Member, because these would have to be undertaken on an individual basis, and are not part of the review that we're conducting at the moment concerning 20 mph.
In terms of unadopted roads, I think the latest position is captured in an answer to a written question from your colleague the leader of the Conservatives, so information is on there regarding unadopted roads.

Darren Millar AC: It was a question that I tabled, actually.

Ken Skates AC: It was your question—sorry.

Darren Millar AC: You've already answered the points that I was raising, if I may say so.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And can I thank Members for keeping to their times? It allowed me to allow all Members to ask their questions.

7. Legislative Consent Motion on the Automated Vehicles Bill

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 this afternoon is a legislative consent motion on the Automated Vehicles Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport to move the motion—Ken Skates.

Motion NDM8541 Ken Skates
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Automated Vehicles Bill, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you for this opportunity to explain the background to this LCM on the Automated Vehicles Bill. As the UK Government has noted in bringing forward this Bill, automated vehicles are fast approaching commercialisation in markets around the world, and by 2035, 40 per cent of new cars in the UK could have self-driving capabilities. Grocery deliveries and passenger services look likely to be operating in self-driving vehicles within a similar time frame, so the law needs to be ready for these significant advances in transport technology. So, I welcome this Bill, which implements the recommendations of the four-year review of regulation for automated vehicles, carried out jointly by the Law Commission of England and Wales and the Scottish Law Commission. It will set the legal framework for the safe deployment of self-driving vehicles in Great Britain. Broadly, the Bill does this by creating an authorisation regime for automated vehicles for use on roads, regulating bodies responsible for the automated features and operation of authorised automated vehicles, and by introducing an enforcement regime and creating a permitting system for automated passenger vehicles.
Since the introduction of the Bill, the Welsh Government has been working with the UK Government to examine whether the legislative proposals are appropriate for Welsh circumstances. We have concluded that they are. We recognise the need to facilitate the safe and efficient deployment of self-driving vehicles. In our view, the interconnected nature of transport systems in Wales and England and the combination of reserved and devolved matters involved mean that it is most effective and appropriate for provision for both to be taken forward at the same time, in the same legislative instrument. As the technology is advancing rapidly in this area, we want to make sure that the legislative framework keeps pace and is fully aligned across the UK.
We've been able to secure important amendments to the Bill that reflect the responsibilities of the Welsh Ministers, and ensure we have the equivalent powers to those of UK Ministers where appropriate. I'm grateful to the UK Government for working with us on this. I'm also grateful to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of our work in relation to this Bill. I'd like to reassure the LJC committee that I do not ask lightly for consent for the UK Parliament to legislate in devolved areas, but in these circumstances, I think this is the right way to legislate. We sought to provide information in a timely fashion to facilitate scrutiny within the constraints of Westminster and Whitehall timescales and processes. I ask Members to support this LCM.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Sarah Murphy.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. My committee has reported on each of the legislative consent memoranda laid by the Welsh Government on the Automated Vehicles Bill, our final report being laid yesterday afternoon in respect of a third memorandum, which was laid just over two weeks ago. I will begin by confirming that my committee considers that the provisions of the Bill as set out in all three memoranda fall within a purpose within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as described in Standing Order 29, and therefore require the consent of the Senedd.
Deputy Presiding Officer, my contribution to this debate this afternoon will focus on two areas: delegated powers in the Bill, and the Welsh Government's approach to legislating in this area. First, as mentioned by the Cabinet Secretary, the Bill contains new regulation-making powers for the Welsh Ministers, and the delegation of additional powers to the Executive is always a significant matter. Given that this is a Bill passing through a different Parliament, meaning different elected Members are approving this delegation, it is important that it is highlighted here today.
Secondly, and finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, in the committee's first report, an opportunity was taken to explore with the Welsh Government the interaction between this Bill and the Welsh Government's own proposals for new taxi and private hire vehicle legislation. As mentioned by the Cabinet Secretary, the committee was aware that in its 2022 joint report on automated vehicles, the Law Commission of England and Wales, and the Scottish Law Commission, recommended that a new automated vehicles Act should be introduced, and that the UK, Scottish and Welsh Governments should work together to introduce a uniform scheme.
The committee thought it useful to ask the Welsh Government to clarify when it decided to use the Bill for the provisions that require consent and how this decision relates to its own proposed legislation. This was asked to help understand the Welsh Government's overall approach to using UK Bills to make provision in devolved areas. The response provided by the then Deputy Minister for Climate Change is highlighted in our second report, and the committee was told that the provisions in the Bill that require Senedd consent were not requested by the Welsh Government, and rather they were drafted at the behest of the UK Government. The previous Deputy Minister also said that the provisions are not within the scope of the Welsh Government's planned legislation and, therefore, have no impact upon it.
In our third and final report, we noted that the Welsh Government has been proactively seeking changes to several clauses in the Bill since its introduction. And while the committee has long-standing concerns with the democratic deficit emerging as a result of Bills in the UK Parliament making provision for Wales in devolved areas, the constructive inter-governmental working on this Bill is very welcome. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly on this LCM this afternoon. As this technology develops at a rapid speed, we are expecting to see a 40 per cent increase of new cars in the UK having self-driving capabilities by 2035. It's anticipated that, by 2025, we'll start to see self-driving vehicles improve the way goods are moved around the country. Speaking as someone who is both an avid motorist and a huge fan of tech, this is something that really excites me, and it's great to see the UK Government is leading the way in this area.
With 88 per cent of road collisions having human error as a contributing factor, self-driving vehicles could help cut deaths and injuries on our roads. This new technology will also, undoubtedly, make travelling more convenient and accessible, particularly for the elderly, those with disabilities and mobility problems. With this advancement in technology, it's paramount that safety requirements are put in place, and that's exactly what this Bill aims to do. It will ultimately deliver one of the most effective and advanced legal frameworks for self-driving vehicles with safety at its centre. According to the UK Government, it will also set the safety threshold for legal self-driving, establish an in-use regulatory scheme to monitor the ongoing safety of these vehicles, and ensure clear liability for the user. Not only that, but this Bill will also go a long way in cementing the UK's position as a global leader in this high-tech and high-growth industry, which will create up to 38,000 jobs.
I welcome the alignment between the Welsh Government and the UK Government over this Bill, however I do have a question for the Cabinet Secretary. I'd be keen to know to what extent the Welsh Government has been engaging with the wider parameters of this Bill and if the Welsh Government has been exploring ways to make sure Wales is also at the forefront of this technology. Like I said, these are really exciting times, and this Bill is an important step when it comes to rolling out this innovative technology, going forward. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Ken Skates AC: I'd like to thank both Members for contributing to this debate. I remain of the view that we should provide legislative consent for this Bill, and I ask Members, therefore, to agree to this LCM.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting under this item until voting time.
And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: There is only one vote this evening, under item 7, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions, 11 against, therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7—Legislative Consent Motion on the Automated Vehicles Bill: For: 41, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:04.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Mike Hedges: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s proposals for leasehold reform?

Vaughan Gething: The Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning is working with the UK Government on the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill. It will deliver much-needed improvements in the law for existing and future leaseholders in Wales, including making enfranchisement simpler, improving service charge transparency and banning unfair insurance commissions.

Hefin David: Will the First Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting rail travel in the Caerphilly constituency?

Vaughan Gething: We have invested over £1bn to transform the Core Valley Lines alongside £800m on new trains. Transport for Wales are operating brand new trains on the Rhymney Line and from June will provide two additional services per hour from Caerphilly delivering a high quality turn-up and go Metro service.

Joyce Watson: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's COVID vaccination campaign?

Vaughan Gething: Over 9.7 million COVID-19 vaccinations have been administered in Wales since 2020. As it was last year, the spring booster is targeted at those at greatest risk of serious illness. It started on the 2nd of April. I’d encourage all who are eligible to come forward when they’re invited.

Julie Morgan: Will the First Minster make a statement on how the Welsh Government protects children’s rights?

Vaughan Gething: Wales was the first UK country to enshrine children’s rights into law, through The Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. The Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020 came into force in March 2022, representing a historic step in protecting children's rights and welfare.

Questions to the Counsel General

Jack Sargeant: What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding what it can do to help secure justice for Welsh sub-postmasters impacted by the Horizon Post Office IT scandal?

Mick Antoniw: I share your deep concerns about this and all miscarriages of justice. Whilst we continue to ask searching questions, justice is reserved to the UK Government. The UK Government created this dire situation and so it is for the UK Government to resolve it and also fund justice properly.

Sarah Murphy: What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about the use of facial recognition technology in Wales?

Mick Antoniw: The use of facial recognition technology is an operational decision for the police. Policing is reserved and the responsibility of the Home Office. However, any use of this technology must have a clear legal basis and be subject to effective oversight from a suitable national regulator.

Delyth Jewell: What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding what action it can take to help secure justice for Welsh women born in the 1950s who have been denied their pensions?

Mick Antoniw: The Welsh Government notes the report findings by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. The Welsh Government supports calls for the UK Government to set out formal proposals in response to the report as soon as possible.